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The Case Against OLED

pseudoid

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I don't recall if this 'aspect' for our SmartTV addiction had been previously discussed but worth my effort to partially copy/paste here:
The Hidden Cost of Cheap TVs -
Screens have gotten inexpensive—and they’re watching you back.


...Smart TVs are just like search engines, social networks, and email providers that give us a free service in exchange for monitoring us and then selling that info to advertisers leveraging our data. These devices “are collecting information about what you’re watching, how long you’re watching it, and where you watch it,” Willcox said, “then selling that data—which is a revenue stream that didn’t exist a couple of years ago.” There’s nothing particularly secretive about this—data-tracking companies such as Inscape and Samba proudly brag right on their websites about the TV manufacturers they partner with and the data they amass...


The companies that manufacture televisions call this “post-purchase monetization,” and it means they can sell TVs almost at cost and still make money over the long term by sharing viewing data. In addition to selling your viewing information to advertisers, smart TVs also show ads in the interface. Roku, for example, prominently features a given TV show or streaming service on the right-hand side of its home screen—that’s a paid advertisement. Roku also has its own ad-supported channel, the Roku Channel, and gets a cut of the video ads shown on other channels on Roku devices....
From <https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2023/01/smart-tvs-sony-lg-cheap/672614/>
(from the January 2023 issue of The Atlantic)

ADD: It should also be mentioned that there are many How-to discussions on "stopping your TV from spying" on your pron viewing habits.;)
 
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Sal1950

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Have you calibrated the panel or applied some recommended PQ settings at all?
Thanks for that post,
I got a Samsung QN85QN90 coming on Thurs, really excited.
You buy your ticket and take your ride, but for my intended use I just KNOW I'd burn the screen on a OLED, anyone who says it can't be done has been reading too many of the High End audio mags and believing their reviews. :p
Am I allowed to post this here?
Thanks for that, think I'll print it out to show some friends who thing I'm crazy, and was crazy when I got my 75. My listening chair is 12' exactly from the screen which seems the perfect size according to your posts.
My mother always told me I would ruin my eyes, I haven't yet. LOL
 

robwpdx

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I'm not a display professional, but I have spent time in their professional societies.

The Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers - SMPTE and Kodak developed a lot of science around color reproduction and brightness. The Society for Information Display - SID is where innovation and measurement happens today. It is all tied to vision science, with their own medical and psychology professionals.

Fortunately there is enough money in the display industry to support research, development, manufacturing, and measurement!

There are many parallels between our audio world and the moving image reproduction world. The eye has a tremendous dynamic range and retinal and brain processing to rival the ear. Like audio, the intent in a movie theater or at home is to manage accuracy end to end moderated by the artist intent! You see similar tools used in photography.

On set you will often see very expensive test charts from https://dsclabs.com/, just like photographers use https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/colorchecker-targets. The camera is calibrated. In the editing suite, and especially the color correction suite, the reference monitors and projectors/screens are calibrated, the room background lighting is controlled and the wall behind the screen is a neutral grey.

Just like audio in the edit, color correction, and mastering, the director and producer make many artistic decisions about color and brightness with consideration of the consumer viewing environment.

Just like audio, our acuity in the voice range has parallels to our eye acuity for skin tones. Kodak managed that chemically, your digital camera does it today with proprietary algorithms.

Because of my involvement with the SID chapter I met the Canadian developers of HDR displays for photography and video before they were bought by Dolby, and many of our area display professionals went from Sharp Labs to Dolby. Dolby does perceptual research on picture.

So just like audio, the display, the room, and calibration is a good approach to your viewing if you want to experience the very expensively made director's intent!

RTings does a good job at testing in a way that is accessible to prosumers. The tristimulus response, color space found in nature, color space that is perceivable beyond colors found in nature, the continual advancements in expanding the color space of displays, brightness (and longevity) of the tristimulus phosphors/emitters/lasers is always a challenge and always advancing.

MicroLED are fantastic and fantastically expensive. They are also heavy and power hungry. Many of the Apple stores have them, and if you have to ask the price, you can't afford it. If you can find a Dolby laser theater, and their 3D technology, they are great. One of our local art film theaters has gone crazy for 70MM film projection and owns many film prints so occasionally draws directors, like Tarantino, for special showings of his films. They get a premium admission price for classic films on 70mm.

I have a background in photonics, so I'm a fan of quantum dots, but they cannot overcome the imperfections of the LCD shutter, even with local dimming. If you want to get into laser projection, with in many cases a great gamut, there are screens that selectively reflect only the tristimulus and not all (white) light. Occasionally there is talk of RGB+YCM so you have a hexagon in x,y color space, but no one is capturing that on set. The interaction of color, similar to our psychoacoustic masking, is a fascinating subject and you can still get made-in-his-lifetime Josef Albers prints for not too much money.

To size, I don't have a dedicated theater room but I have a lot of art. So I went small - 48" in the corner. It is a well rated mid-price LCD, calibrated. I won't buy a Chinese brand, too much cyber risk to spend time to address. In our local SID chapter, we, of course, discussed the human factor - spouse acceptance factor. For that, make your large screen a window, or a window streaming anyplace in the world, or if you are Bill Gates, make it a painting.

Funny story, I heard a talk by Bran Ferren. He talked about how the DP would rent very expensive digital movie cameras, outfit them with all the add-ons for follow focus and shading, tracks and dolly, rent ridiculously exotic lens sets, and calibrate the camera. The last step was throwing a piece of nylon stocking in front to the lens to soften the picture because no one wants to see skin pores blown up to crater size on a large screen in a movie theater. His point was artistic intent.

The other funny story comes from school. I took just one optics course because my EE was adjacent to the best optics school in the country, and I had a pretty famous professor for that class too. For the full optics major, one class brought in an expert to speak from Kodak. Their entire job at Kodak was to study how skin tone was reproduced in print and on screen. It changes over years. Sometimes oranger, greener, or bluer, and it varies across ethnicity. It is a big thing in fashion and it follows artistic intent, not accuracy.

So all said, I'm a prosumer who uses objective scientific reviews to attain accurate in-home reproduction of the artistic intent within the cost I am willing to pay. I'm fortunate to have some relevant engineering background. There is a lot of engineering expertise deeper than mine on ASR and it is always a pleasure to have their contributions.

https://www.smpte.org/
https://www.sid.org/ - their conferences and display week trade show are always interesting like the AES
https://nab.org/ their trade show is where to see all the cameras
https://hpaonline.com/ - the Hollywood Production alliance covers production and post for the moving image it is a good group for entering the industry
 
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pseudoid

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I got a Samsung QN85QN90 coming on Thurs, really excited.
Congrats,
I am certain there are still some yt or online websites that have done the properly-instrumented calibrations of most new panels today.
You may discover such a site and calibrate yours << depending on the environment you are going to locate yours in.
Highly recommended... but as always; ymwv and in my imho.
:mad: Don't forget to leash your own trackers on Samsung "trackers" :mad:

OT: First "Avatar" movie (in 4K) had impressed me, although quite the mind-candy. But if we were not seeking sweets-for-our-brains, we would not invest in new TVs... and stick with audio upgrades!:D
 

Sal1950

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OT: First "Avatar" movie (in 4K) had impressed me, although quite the mind-candy. But if we were not seeking sweets-for-our-brains, we would not invest in new TVs... and stick with audio upgrades!
I love high quality audio and video. To me they go hand in hand.
Each to their own on content choice
 

Tim Link

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I just got back from Best buy looking at TVs. I know that's not the best place to give an OLED a fair shake. What I saw there was impressive at first but then watching some selected content from movies I could see dramatic detail loss in the darks. Just curious if you think that's just a stupid setting they've got TV in at the store? I asked if they could put anything in filmmaker mode and I was told no. I want to know what mode they were in they wouldn't tell me that either. So I suspect I've never really seen an OLED do its thing correctly. In that setting The better LCD TVs looked comparatively a bit washed out and dull compared to the OLED, but so does reality! The OLED color and contrast were both way over the top.
 

Mr. Widget

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Best Buy and most store have their displays set to "Retail" mode or similar with the settings maxed out for brightness... just like when auditioning speakers, as the loudest speaker will sound best to most listeners, with displays most people will choose the brightest display.
 

Tim Link

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Best Buy and most store have their displays set to "Retail" mode or similar with the settings maxed out for brightness... just like when auditioning speakers, as the loudest speaker will sound best to most listeners, with displays most people will choose the brightest display.
Perhaps not the brightest but the most dazzling. The mini LED displays are brighter but the color and contrast is super jacked up on the OLEDs. I think that's because they don't get as bright so they have to do something else to show them off.
 

pseudoid

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I know that's not the best place to give an OLED a fair shake.
You see what ASR does for our benefit: A store display (whether at BestBuy, Costco, elsewhere) cannot - in any manner - allow you to be able compare even just 2 displays side-by-side. We have to trust (reputable) websites to determine our viewing decisions.
...but for my intended use I just KNOW I'd burn the screen on a OLED, anyone who says it can't be done has been reading too many of the High End audio mags and believing their reviews.
Front bumpers led to 5mph crash worthiness; which led to crumple-zones in the frame/structure, which led to abs, which led to airbags... but anyone can still run it into a cement wall.
You see where I am going with this comparo of car safety to your statement about OLED' burn-in. ;) I am not in a mood to argue pro/con, though!:facepalm:
 

Timcognito

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I just got back from Best buy looking at TVs. I know that's not the best place to give an OLED a fair shake. What I saw there was impressive at first but then watching some selected content from movies I could see dramatic detail loss in the darks. Just curious if you think that's just a stupid setting they've got TV in at the store? I asked if they could put anything in filmmaker mode and I was told no. I want to know what mode they were in they wouldn't tell me that either. So I suspect I've never really seen an OLED do its thing correctly. In that setting The better LCD TVs looked comparatively a bit washed out and dull compared to the OLED, but so does reality! The OLED color and contrast were both way over the top.
Try Video Only, there's one in Eugene. They tend to set their TVs up more realistically and the sales guys know more as that's all they sell. Prices also can be a bit better with the lower overhead. OLEDs do not perform at their best in bright rooms although they have improved much in last five years so if that is what you have maybe there is something better.
 

Tim Link

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You see what ASR does for our benefit: A store display (whether at BestBuy, Costco, elsewhere) cannot - in any manner - allow you to be able compare even just 2 displays side-by-side. We have to trust (reputable) websites to determine our viewing decisions.
Indeed it's good to get bedrock information about what the TVs or audio systems are doing. rtings does a pretty good job of telling you about the TVs and I use them to choose the mini LED that I got. You have to know what matters to you and I do think I do not like aggressive ABL. So if I were to get a OLED I wonder if I could just simply turn down the brightness so that it never has to go into that mode. I guess I turned on the brightness and contrast. It should still be able to do its perfect black thing, it just won't try to make small spots in brighter than it can make the whole screen which I think is about 200 nitss for most OLED. It looks like progress is being made in the brightness area for direct emissive type displays. There is technology that's promising that should completely solve the problem time, unless there's some manufacturing issue. I know a lot of theatrical people don't like or see the need for very bright screens but truth is a lot of cinematic material does not look good to me. There's a lot of content I just don't like the way they color grade it. So as a result a lot of SDR just ends up looking better than HDR, and I do enjoy SDR nice and bright with rich color. The mini LED does that but there's that blooming issue and unevenness depending on what's being lit, so it's so close!!
 

Soria Moria

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Maybe I'm being semantic but I wish the term 'burn-in' would be retired from OLED discussions. It's an outdated term from the CRT days. Nothing is actually burning-in the glass on your OLED. It's just pixels losing luminance over time which can retain shapes and/or create ugly patterns. Permanent image retention is better or maybe something like wear-down.
 
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Sal1950

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You see what ASR does for our benefit: A store display (whether at BestBuy, Costco, elsewhere) cannot - in any manner - allow you to be able compare even just 2 displays side-by-side. We have to trust (reputable) websites to determine our viewing decisions.

Front bumpers led to 5mph crash worthiness; which led to crumple-zones in the frame/structure, which led to abs, which led to airbags... but anyone can still run it into a cement wall.
You see where I am going with this comparo of car safety to your statement about OLED' burn-in. ;) I am not in a mood to argue pro/con, though!:facepalm:
In short I will say all the OLED builders are making claims of being highly resistant to image burn.
But not one of them will warranty the panels against it.
Each to their own but I've yet to see a OLED really beat my new Samsung Neo QLED QN85QN90B.
It gets incredible blacks and the brightness can blind a nad. LOL
You buy your ticket and take your ride.
 

Sal1950

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Maybe I'm being semantic but I wish the term 'burn-in' would be retired from OLED discussions. It's an outdated term from the CRT days. Nothing is actually burning-in the glass on your OLED. It's just pixels losing luminance over time which can retain shapes and/or create ugly patterns. Permanent image retention is better or maybe something like wear-out.
I understand what your saying but the term has been used and understood for a couple decades now.
No sense in confusing people with new terms for the same issue.
 

Philbo King

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I used to design flight deck (PC term for cockpit) displays for commercial air transport jets.

When we switched from florescent LCD back lights to white quantum well LEDs during Boeing 777 days, a tremendous amount of testing went into LED lifetime. It was found that driving them hard caused brightness to dim unacceptably in too short of a timeframe; keeping in mind these jets are in service for >50 years.

So the LED backlights were heavily over-engineered by using many more LEDs than originally specified, and running at a much lower average level.

Note on the meaning of Average: The displays need to be able to vary over a 50000:1 brightness range (the difference between flying into a sunrise versus flying on a moonless night). So 'average' here means the drive level for a given specified light output.

The point: LED output always degrades over time. And faster, in a nonlinear way, when being driven hard.
 
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Tim Link

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So I've got a QN85A from a few years back, and I've noticed that a lot of HDR content is not graded in a way that I really like. In cinematic stuff they do things to get a look or feel that can unnatural in a number of ways. I find it strange, for instance, when they darken a daylight landscape that's in direct sunlight for whatever mood effect they're trying to get. I would never do that. But another thing that seems incredibly common is to set the gamma or contrast to "enhance" blacks, to try to enhance contrast too much just because you can. Setting the TV up to also do that is a double whammy bad look. I've been using filmmaker mode as a way to prevent the TV from trying to get overly dramatic with the look, and I've been pretty happy with that. But tonight I played with the "expert settings" and found that if I turn the gamma to 3 and max out the shadow detail setting, most HDR content looks much more natural and enjoyable. Some doesn't need as much as others, but erring in the dark areas being brought up a little too much is far less offensive to my eye than pushing them down too much. Just looking around my house with some lights on and some off, that extreme dark black contrast look is just not what I see in reality. Outside after dark I can sometimes see that if there's something really starkly illuminated nearby and there's no light pollution, and no moon out that night. Otherwise I see shades of grey. That just seems to be how things really look.
 

Sal1950

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So I've got a QN85A from a few years back, and I've noticed that a lot of HDR content is not graded in a way that I really like.
For whatever reasons, I've never been a big fan of HDR in home video material.
I find it's only at it's best in darkened rooms with bright TV's.
I could happily stay with SDR at home with no complaints.

YMMV
 
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dasdoing

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Maybe I'm being semantic but I wish the term 'burn-in' would be retired from OLED discussions. It's an outdated term from the CRT days. Nothing is actually burning-in the glass on your OLED. It's just pixels losing luminance over time which can retain shapes and/or create ugly patterns. Permanent image retention is better or maybe something like wear-down.

pretty sure that even if CRT never existed this would be called burn-in as stuff looks like it is burned in. that is just how language works
 

Talisman

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I recently purchased a new 65 inch television for my living room. I was undecided between an OLED and a miniLED, then I saw them side by side in a large, very bright shopping centre, the OLED simply couldn't keep up, in a side by side comparison it was much less bright. Having to use the TV daily in my room with two large windows, I decided to opt for the miniLed. When I buy a TV for the dark basement I will definitely look for an OLED. I don't believe that at the moment there is an absolute superior technology, I believe there are use cases that justify different technologies
 
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