The Case Against OLED

[Sal1950]

No silly.
Sound reflections ....

I think Ken means sound reflections.

Ah, no not worried a bit.
I've done plenty of room treatment with acoustic panels etc all over plus use of Audyssey room correction software.
I'm in good shape here.

 

[pseudoid]

So I do tend to upgrade somewhat frequently, plus unlike speakers the monitors are relatively cheap and have gotten cheaper every year.

Oh, Oh! Hey... "Toto @Sal1950 , I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore!"
What happens when one is the same as the other?

Sony has designed the surface of the BRAVIA OLED to double as a sound source. The picture is the sound. This innovative audio setup, called Acoustic Surface, uses four actuators affixed to the back of the panel to turn the entire screen into a sound-emitting structure.
From <https://www.wired.com/brandlab/2017...coustic-surface-powering-sonys-first-oled-tv/>

An ASR member should send one in for some testing... perhaps you who happens to be an upgrade expert.

 

[Tim Link]

Tandem OLED looks interesting. The newer iPads are using it, and can get a 100% screen area brightness of 1000 nits! That's a LOT brighter than the OLED TVs can do. It even handily beats my mini LED. Plenty bright enough for me. From what I've read there are scaling problems with using it on large screen TVs, but that might be just a matter of time to get things sorted out. So from my perspective, the tandem OLED seems to solve everything. No need for excessive ABL, very little concern about burn in, and all the benefits of single pixel perfect brightness with jet black backgrounds, free of blooming, combined with fantastic full screen brightness for those of us who like that for outdoor daylight scenes, and prefer to watch TV in reasonably well lit rooms.

 

[EERecordist]

The conference where display research and development is the Society for Information Display. They publish papers and show new wares and prototypes at the conference. I was a member for a while. Displays have more innovation than audio because they have more money! You can do a news search for SID Conference.

All-in-one polychromatic LEDs replace RGB for radically sharper screens

While the Apple Vision Pro VR headset has a much-hyped resolution of 3,386 PPI (pixels per inch), a new technology more than doubles that figure. It was created by Los Angeles-based startup Q-Pixel, and it could revolutionize the world of video displays.

newatlas.com

 

[pablolie]

... Displays have more innovation than audio because they have more money! You can do a news search for SID Conference. ...

Which also is because the fundamental technologies are relevant for many other multi-billion dollar use cases outside of consumer devices.

For my ownTV stuff, I honestly don't car about the underlying display tech as long as the specs are good... luminosity, viewing angle, movement, color accuracy, etc... reliability? They all seem to have th exact same warranties these days, so that doesn't seem to be overly tech specific.

 

[Tell]

Displays have more innovation than audio because they have more money!

Displays have more innovation than audio because it's still not even close to humans threashold of visibilty while we have been able to capture anf play the whole audible range using CDs since the 80s.
..and yes of course there is more to it than that, but my point being that imagery is in many ways way more complicated and requiers so much more bandwidth, data, computing power etc than audio.

 

[Soria Moria]

The conference where display research and development is the Society for Information Display. They publish papers and show new wares and prototypes at the conference. I was a member for a while. Displays have more innovation than audio because they have more money! You can do a news search for SID Conference.

All-in-one polychromatic LEDs replace RGB for radically sharper screens

While the Apple Vision Pro VR headset has a much-hyped resolution of 3,386 PPI (pixels per inch), a new technology more than doubles that figure. It was created by Los Angeles-based startup Q-Pixel, and it could revolutionize the world of video displays.

newatlas.com

I'm still waiting for displays to get back the motion clarity they abandoned when they "innovated" on from CRTs. I get eyestrain from motion blur on my LG C2 after a while. Especially at lower framerates. That's why I bought a CRT to finally have no motion blur at any refresh rate.

 

[Timcognito]

I get eyestrain from motion blur on my LG C2 after a while. Especially at lower framerates.

I think what you are referring to is studder and judder which comes film from content

Taken from Rtings.com review of LG C3

 

[Soria Moria]

I think what you are referring to is studder and judder which comes film from content
View attachment 376010
Taken from Rtings.com review of LG C3

I'm referring to sample and hold motion blur. Sample and hold displays will show a frame and hold it there for the continuation of the frame which depends on the framerate. 60 Hz/fps = 16,7 ms (assuming virtually instantaneous response times). This is unnatural to our eyes when we track moving objects across the screen leading to lots of motion blur on moving objects. I'm not the best at explaining but there's a ton of content about this out there.

One moment, please...

Here you can see the effect for yourself. Even at 120 Hz on an OLED display the UFO is visually blurry.

 

[Timcognito]

There are some settings that can help. Not an expert by any means. FYI

LG C2 OLED Review (OLED42C2PUA, OLED48C2PUA, OLED55C2PUA, OLED65C2PUA, OLED77C2PUA, OLED83C2PUA)

The LG C2 OLED, the successor to the very popular LG C1 OLED, is a mid-range OLED TV sitting above the LG B2 OLED and below the 'Gallery Style' LG G2 OLED in LG'...

www.rtings.com

 

[EERecordist]

I'm still waiting for displays to get back the motion clarity they abandoned when they "innovated" on from CRTs. I get eyestrain from motion blur on my LG C2 after a while. Especially at lower framerates. That's why I bought a CRT to finally have no motion blur at any refresh rate.

The big display companies have labs to study that, but I don't know how one would volunteer. There are probably scientific papers on it.

 

[Curvature]

The big display companies have labs to study that, but I don't know how one would volunteer. There are probably scientific papers on it.

I have one which shows that there are visible improvements up to 500Hz, with diminishing returns thereafter until 1.2kHz IIRC.

Even top of the line TVs are not even close.

Audio is more developed in that sense, in terms of speaker design.

 

[pseudoid]

Audio is more developed in that sense, in terms of speaker design.

My 'CD-quality' brain also thinks that digital/still photography has also been conquered.

 

[Curvature]

My 'CD-quality' brain also thinks that digital/still photography has also been conquered.

I have little familiarity with visual tech overall, but I think that makes sense.

 

[Tell]

I'm referring to sample and hold motion blur. Sample and hold displays will show a frame and hold it there for the continuation of the frame which depends on the framerate. 60 Hz/fps = 16,7 ms (assuming virtually instantaneous response times). This is unnatural to our eyes when we track moving objects across the screen leading to lots of motion blur on moving objects. I'm not the best at explaining but there's a ton of content about this out there.

One moment, please...

Here you can see the effect for yourself. Even at 120 Hz on an OLED display the UFO is visually blurry.

Enable BFI and it should reduce that sample and hold motion blur, but instead it will introduce flickering just like those old CRT monitors which is something I personally don't miss at all because it makes the eyes tired giving headache after a while.
The only real solution to this problem is higher framerate, but instead we'll loose the so called cinematic feeling that 24p gives instead. Seems like there is no free lunch..

I have one which shows that there are visible improvements up to 500Hz, with diminishing returns thereafter until 1.2kHz IIRC.

Even top of the line TVs are not even close.

Audio is more developed in that sense, in terms of speaker design.

Care to show that study? Because I don't think 1.2kHz ain't enough either in some extreme cases where you have really big sizes, high resolution and something moving really fast (more than 1.2 kpx).

My 'CD-quality' brain also thinks that digital/still photography has also been conquered.

It can almost capture it all in still photography, if shot with HDR brackets. But we still can't display it properly, need higher resolution and higher contrast displays for it.
Though I'm not sure I'll ever want that kind of display that can do the same brightness as the sun while still keeping that inky OLED blacks!

 

[Curvature]

Care to show that study? Because I don't think 1.2kHz ain't enough either in some extreme cases where you have really big sizes, high resolution and something moving really fast (more than 1.2 kpx).

I think it was this one. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4314649/

I was incorrect about the upper limit, it's just 1kHz (and because experiment did not test higher rates), and also this study was looking just at still color projections rather than moving images.

 

[Tim Link]

I've noticed motion problems since I was a child back in the 1970s. I recall motion tails on CRTs, and a strong jumping effect on movies in theaters at 24 fps when large area scenes were panning too fast. What's weird is the higher frame rates help, but then it changes the mood of movies in a way I don't like.

 

[Tell]

I think it was this one. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4314649/

I was incorrect about the upper limit, it's just 1kHz (and because experiment did not test higher rates), and also this study was looking just at still color projections rather than moving images.

Ah yeah, that's an interesting one, but would be even more interesting to see tests at higher refreshrates. I've seen people theorizing that we need up to somewhere around 20khz to get rid of all temporal aliasing, sample and hold blur etc, but seeing that we don't even have the technology for that yet we just have to wait and see

 

[Rednaxela]

Last week my 65" Sony X90L arrived. It replaces a Sony KD-49X8305C.

For anyone interested, these are my impressions so far. I mostly tested it with reasonably high-quality FHD SDR cable TV content.

• The narrow viewing angle is real. On our sofa, we're all in the zone, but the image quality drops quite quickly outside of it.
• Mounted on the wall with a non-swiveling bracket, its cable sockets are very hard to reach, if not impossible.
• The image quality is superb. Its local dimming works very, very well. I'm amazed at what an upper mid-range TV can deliver nowadays, especially with good quality source material and
• some dialing in, which I feel it does benefit from. Apart from the more regular changes I applied, what really made it click for me was letting go of the Expert colour temperature I had selected initially, switching to Warm, and turning the Color to 44. Full settings in the spoiler below.
• I still need to properly explore HDR. There is one HDR channel in our cable subscription. When I switched to it, it immediately maxed out the TV's brightness setting. As it probably should, but I can't say I liked this sudden light explosion in my face very much. Maybe in time I'll get understand the appeal, who knows.

Spoiler: My SDR Picture Settings

Picture mode: Custom
Auto picture mode: Off
Light sensor: On, with Auto Tone Curve suboption Off
Brightness: 20
Contrast: 87
Gamma: -2
Black level: 50
Black adjust: Off
Adv. contrast enhanced: Off
Auto local dimming: Medium
Peak luminance: Off
Color: 44
Hue: 0
Color temperature: Warm
Live color: Off
Sharpness: 50
Reality Creation: Off
Random noise reduction: Off
Digital noise reduction: Off
Smooth gradation: Off
Motionflow: Off
CineMotion: High
Video signals: all Auto
Adv. color adjustment: all default

 

[DLS79]

some dialing in, which I feel it does benefit from. Apart from the more regular changes I applied, what really made it click for me was letting go of the Expert colour temperature I had selected initially, switching to Warm, and turning the Color to 44. Full settings in the spoiler below.

If you want it to look really good, and are ok with spending a little time and money, buy a colorimeter and a copy of Calman Home for Sony tvs. The X90Lis a calibratable tv.