The BEST rooms - looking for real world measurements

[dasdoing]

Harman curve for loudspeakers

I’ve been pondering the harman curve this morning, or more specifically why the convention is to measure headphones with references to the harman curve, but to measure loudspeakers with reference to an ideal flat response. Perhaps for professional monitoring a flat loudspeaker response is ideal...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[holdingpants01]

For a start, you can view jim1961's "exceptional" measured listening room data over at the gearspace forums here:

Gearspace.com - View Single Post - My Listening Room

Post 12239385 -Forum for professional and amateur recording engineers to share techniques and advice.

gearspace.com

Yeah, it's rather old (2016 the latest) -- but still one of the "better" seen and thoroughly documented -- with REW (data file for download) results in gearspace/"gearslutz" of a meticulously purpose-built listening room with many pages worth of discussion.

I have to say that I also upmix stereo sources to surround often, but minus the very elaborate acoustic panelling as seen in jim's room.

The amount of "combing" seen below is something that I haven't noticed in my own surround "upmixed" measurements. However, the MCH mixing algorithm, placement of speakers, and magnitude attenuation levels are not the same. In fact, there's hardly any difference in the magnitude response when the surrounds are completely muted in mine.


View attachment 307214


Some more detailed graphs of his left channel only:

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Awesome, thanks, that's what I'm looking for

 

[Igor Kirkwood]

I've found an article by Bob Katz with some helpful graphs, I just don't know how smoothed it is https://www.stereophile.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-17-perfecting-perfection but still it's interesting to see how it looks without room correction

Finally ! on ASR the consideration of the response curve of an installation, measured at the listening position of the listener!

Wonderful response curve, measured at this listening position, obtained by Bob Katz on the magazine Stéréophile.

But this curve falls strongly and voluntarily above 1000 Hz.
I therefore prefer the dualazmak response curve which gives it several "target curves" to choose from in acute.

Another reproach to Bob Katz is the weakness of its curve below 30 Hz, which makes it impossible to correctly hear the lowest frequencies of the organ around 16 Hz.

I also find that the Step response is weak too.

Here in comparison is the Step response from another installation.

 

[fpitas]

I've found an article by Bob Katz with some helpful graphs, I just don't know how smoothed it is https://www.stereophile.com/content/katzs-corner-episode-17-perfecting-perfection but still it's interesting to see how it looks without room correction

He's right about using headphones as a sanity check on speakers.

 

[holdingpants01]

He's right about using headphones as a sanity check on speakers.

Right, I sometimes do it, but my speaker system is good enough that headphones doesn't bring much anymore. I'm using DCA Aeon 2 Noire and 8351B + W371A. They're perfect when working from my couch at home

 

[fpitas]

Right, I sometimes do it, but my speaker system is good enough that headphones doesn't bring much anymore. I'm using DCA Aeon 2 Noire and 8351B + W371A. They're perfect when working from my couch at home

That's good. A lot of peeps turn their nose up at headphones, claiming that only speakers produce the "right" sound.

 

[dualazmak]

I therefore prefer the dualazmak response curve which gives it several "target curves" to choose from in acute.

Another reproach to Bob Katz is the weakness of its curve below 30 Hz, which makes it impossible to correctly hear the lowest frequencies of the organ around 16 Hz.

Hello again, Igor,

Thank you for your kind attention on my Fq response curve(s) and approach which I shared in my above post #14 and #20, and also in my latest system setup post here.

Also I agree on your point of "organ around 16 Hz", e.g. I clearly shared in my post here showing the 3D color spectrum of Adobe Audition 3.0.1.
Furthermore, I need to clearly play/reproduce in many music tracks down to around 30 Hz - 40 Hz, e.g. as shared here and here.

 

[holdingpants01]

That's good. A lot of peeps turn their nose up at headphones, claiming that only speakers produce the "right" sound.

I would agree 2 years ago, almost all of them without extensive EQ are really far from resembling speakers, I use EQ with Aeons as well, not much but still, so far only DCA Stealth were sounding good enough to me that the EQ was not necessary but the price of these is just too much for what I would use them for

 

[fpitas]

I would agree 2 years ago, almost all of them without extensive EQ are really far from resembling speakers, I use EQ with Aeons as well, not much but still, so far only DCA Stealth were sounding good enough to me that the EQ was not necessary but the price of these is just too much for what I would use them for

The AKG K601s I use aren't bad at all. A little bass shy, but not badly.

AKG K601 Review

Welcome to Cuckoo Studio review. I'm Anzol, The following content is presented from the perspective of a mixing engineer. Measurement Conditions Explanation And Chart Interpretation Of Cuckoo Studio Review...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[dualazmak]

Hello @Igor Kirkwood and friends,

A little bit to be out of the scope of this thread, but for your possible reference (and interests), I just posted on my project thread;
- Reproduction and listening/hearing/feeling sensations to 16 Hz (organ) sound with my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system having big-heavy active L&R sub-woofers: #782

 

[Bow_Wazoo]

Vielleicht nützlich für jemanden

hunecke.de | Loudspeakers Calculator

 

[Igor Kirkwood]

Vielleicht nützlich für jemanden

hunecke.de | Loudspeakers Calculator

= "Maybe useful for someone"

Totally Bow Wazoo

There are in fact 2 ways to reproduce 16 Hz on a High Fidelity system.

-1/ Reproduce it below the normal bass level, at zero dB: For example at -15 bB or -5 dB.....................
but better:

-2/ Either reproduce it faithfully at zero dB, measured at the listening position, and at a good level identical to the reproduction of the HiFi system at 100 Hz / 50 Hz / 30 Hz, knowing that the sensitivity of the ear is very low to hear this frequency of 16 Hz, that of the 32 feet of the organ, it will be necessary to listen at a high level, and without losing the slightest dB in sound level, at 16 Hz.


The advantage of reproducing the "real" 16 Hz at zero dB on a Hi system is that in addition to having a good physical sensation of the bass, we will be able to better hear the ultra-bass reverberations , if they are picked up by the microphones.

But this requires either speakers with a very low bass level (16 Hz), like the Revel Ultima 2 living room speakers, or a fairly powerful sub patch.

These ultra-bass reverberations increase the perceived impression of volume of the recording locations.

 

[dualazmak]

I essentially agree with above Igor's points.

Let me add one point.

You, @Bow_Wazoo, if you have no experience, I highly recommend you to attend an organ concert in big Cathedral or big concert hall (I prefer Cathedral better) where 16 Hz pipe is available, and the organist would use the 16 Hz pipe(s) in mid-to-high volume sustainably (e.g. 10 seconds or longer) by his left foot effectively exciting the huge air space with excellent reverberations. Then you will be able to well understand what I said in my post #782 on my project thread.

 

[holdingpants01]

I essentially agree with above Igor's points.

Let me add one point.

You, @Bow_Wazoo, if you have no experience, I highly recommend you to attend an organ concert in big Cathedral or big concert hall (I prefer Cathedral better) where 16 Hz pipe is available, and the organist would use the 16 Hz pipe(s) in mid-to-high volume sustainably (e.g. 10 seconds or longer) by his left foot effectively exciting the huge air space with excellent reverberations. Then you will be able to well understand what I said in my post #782 on my project thread.

Man, you're really into this one note of one instrument

 

[dualazmak]

Man, you're really into this one note of one instrument

Yes, right, but I am also interested in other bass "music" sounds and extremely high Fq music sounds, and others.
If you would be interested, please visit my summary post here on my "Audio Sampler Reference/Sampler Playlist".

 

[Bow_Wazoo]

To be honest, I made a mistake in the thread.
The link should end up in Amis rew thread.

But fate must have brought me here.
I recently bought the Monitor Audio Silver 300,
a measurement microphone,and some absorbers. So I've been optimizing my room and my frequency response for a few days.
Of course I'm not finished yet, but I have to anticipate one thing: I've never heard music as "good" as yesterday evening.
I was positively shocked, how incredibly important the frequency response correction,
and the optimization of the room are.

 

[Iwe]

Hi cyjanopan, sorry for being late are you still interested in real world measurement?

 

[holdingpants01]

Hi cyjanopan, sorry for being late are you still interested in real world measurement?

sure, bring it on!

 

[Iwe]

The REW file can be downloaded here, (is 7mb zip too large for post attachement in ASR?) -->wetransfer

https://we.tl/t-3KOL32YS5Q ​

 

[Iwe]

Does the download work out? Here are some outtakes. The first graph is a Neumann KH310 measured in a reflection free room, second a Neumann KH420 center speaker in an new build Dolby Atmos Setup with Sub KH870. No Mic calibration, so above 6k its not true ;-) Graph 3 is also the Atmos Center with smoothing for better reading.

As you can see, the anechoic chamber is not really anechoic below 200Hz, its a small one. The center speaker measurement shows some dips around 600 to 800Hz, which could be caused the big console between the speaker and the listening position.