System Upgrade Advice

[duppy_conqueror]

Hi All,

Couple month lurker, 1st time poster.

I'm looking for suggestions/advice on my system upgrade. I started out with the SMSL AD18 and a pair of Micca RB42s (Z-review's recommendations). I recently added a Fluance RT82 and Schiit Sys/Mani phono pre and I have a cheap $10 DAC from Amazon to convert toslink from my TV. Eventually, my system will be as of plans now...

TV (Samsung Frame) toslink out. This is the streamer if I want one.
A bunch of Schiit -- Mani (phono pre), Saga+ (preamp), Vidar (power amp), Modi (DAC) and maybe the Sys to keep the kids from blowing the speakers.
Fluance TT
Emotiva Airmotiv SE8 (or 12 on a deal) Subwoofer
ELAC Debut Reference DBR62 (though this depends on how they sound)

Questions:
- Obviously, love suggestions on the above components/replacements.
- What should my upgrade path look like? (Thinking Sub/DAC, Speakers, Pre, Power Amp)
- I realize I'm breaking the rule of spending more on components than speakers, but I think this nicely leaves the path open. The pair that I really want to hear are the Ohm Walsh XK series. My space would need the Walsh 3000s. Thoughts?
- Speaking of which, the room is big. Like 4000 ft^3 big. Advice?

Considerations/Comments:
- I love how the Schiit looks and I keep looking for something different and coming back to their value and features. I have the Hel on my desk and I love it.
- I like the idea of separate components to maximize upgrades opportunities/upgrade the setup as I go.
- Kids (5 & 2)
- I want a pre with a remote. I've been eyeballing this but no idea how it sounds: https://www.amazon.com/AIYIMA-T8-Pr...e+amp+preamp+dac+remote&qid=1632176023&sr=8-3

 

[Galliardist]

A couple of comments.
First, the Samsung Frame. I have a Frame in my own system. The audio facilities change from year to year, but it's a bit iffy as a streamer. TV sound will be pretty good, and surprisingly you can get really good quality out of some fairly ordinary YouTube videos. Some of the audio streaming apps - not so good. The Tidal app produces pretty muddy sound, plugging a laptop into the system produces a better result there. So rather than dismiss the TV as streamer, just be selective about how you use it, and prepare for a dedicated device later that does more. Good TV sound may result in you watching more (and maybe different) TV...

The turntable. As this is ASR I have no qualms in saying that unless you have a lot of LPs in your collection, ditch it. It's not just an inferior format, it's the most expensive to do well, demands more of your time and is the easiest thing for your kids to damage. If you do have a lot of LPs - I don't know the Fluence turntable, but I'd direct money towards upgrading to an entry level Rega, Project or similar - and a decent support table or wall shelf. You don't need to pay audiophile prices for such things...

The speakers - I ran stand mount speakers in a room nearly that size back in the 1980s (the old KEF Coda 2) and it was alright. The shape of the room, what the walls are made of, the amount of windows, furnishings and floorcoverings, and so on, can be as important as the room size here. Assuming a family living room. where you can put the speakers may be the determining factor in what to use.

Usually stand mount speakers require - stands! Remember to budget for them and to make sure the resulting assembly is stable enough not to topple onto your kids. While on that subject, a volume control they can't reach until they are old enough to treat it sensibly is a good idea, whether that's the control on the amp or the remote.

Keep in mind that eventually you will want your kids to be able to use the system - some of the time! - as they grow older, and think about ease of use in that regard. I'd suggest the first upgrade to the system you propose will be a better control system, as in a better way to choose and play music, whether you are streaming files locally or using a streaming service.

Good luck!

 

[duppy_conqueror]

A couple of comments.
First, the Samsung Frame. I have a Frame in my own system. The audio facilities change from year to year, but it's a bit iffy as a streamer. TV sound will be pretty good, and surprisingly you can get really good quality out of some fairly ordinary YouTube videos. Some of the audio streaming apps - not so good. The Tidal app produces pretty muddy sound, plugging a laptop into the system produces a better result there. So rather than dismiss the TV as streamer, just be selective about how you use it, and prepare for a dedicated device later that does more. Good TV sound may result in you watching more (and maybe different) TV...

The turntable. As this is ASR I have no qualms in saying that unless you have a lot of LPs in your collection, ditch it. It's not just an inferior format, it's the most expensive to do well, demands more of your time and is the easiest thing for your kids to damage. If you do have a lot of LPs - I don't know the Fluence turntable, but I'd direct money towards upgrading to an entry level Rega, Project or similar - and a decent support table or wall shelf. You don't need to pay audiophile prices for such things...

The speakers - I ran stand mount speakers in a room nearly that size back in the 1980s (the old KEF Coda 2) and it was alright. The shape of the room, what the walls are made of, the amount of windows, furnishings and floorcoverings, and so on, can be as important as the room size here. Assuming a family living room. where you can put the speakers may be the determining factor in what to use.

Usually stand mount speakers require - stands! Remember to budget for them and to make sure the resulting assembly is stable enough not to topple onto your kids. While on that subject, a volume control they can't reach until they are old enough to treat it sensibly is a good idea, whether that's the control on the amp or the remote.

Keep in mind that eventually you will want your kids to be able to use the system - some of the time! - as they grow older, and think about ease of use in that regard. I'd suggest the first upgrade to the system you propose will be a better control system, as in a better way to choose and play music, whether you are streaming files locally or using a streaming service.

Good luck!

Thanks for your thoughtful advice.

I hear you on the control part, and that sounds like an argument for the other thing I was considering: the Bluesound Node Pre w/ HDMI eARC. I read here that it has a pretty awful DAC, but it has digital out so that can be helped.

I am not looking for the highest quality sound out of the LPs, but yeah, I do have them. I have some that I love. My teacher playing the Brahms Horn Trio, Eugene Ormandy and Philly playing Tchaik 6 and Respighi Pines/Fountains/Festivals, Szell Bruckner 8 and Wagner Highlights, and Britten Peter Grimes along with some rock/jazz. I think it is fun, so the turntable. But all of that should be on a streaming service...but in my experience, it isn't sometimes.

As you can tell, I love orchestral music. I tried to go pro, but it didn't work out. I want a stereo system that will give me 80% of the feeling of being on stage in the middle of things. And I make more money now, so I can give it a try.

 

[Chrispy]

How does the Emotiva 8" thing qualify as a subwoofer? I'd just get that off the list immediately myself. Even their 12" isn't very interesting.

 

[duppy_conqueror]

How does the Emotiva 8" thing qualify as a subwoofer? I'd just get that off the list immediately myself. Even their 12" isn't very interesting.

I think the woofer is interesting because it has a high pass filter, allowing one to completely take the stand speakers out of the low-end equation. Place it between the pre-outs and the power amp and set the filter. Emotiva seems to get mixed reviews here, but not other places.

 

[Chrispy]

I think the woofer is interesting because it has a high pass filter, allowing one to completely take the stand speakers out of the low-end equation. Place it between the pre-outs and the power amp and set the filter. Emotiva seems to get mixed reviews here, but not other places.

I'm talking about its basic capabilities, 8" is more a bass module than a sub. Having bass management is a good thing, altho just in the sub alone is the poorest way to go IMO.

ps If all you've got for bass management is a hpf in the sub, that might be useful but far from ideal.

 

[Galliardist]

If you are really looking to immerse yourself in orchestral music at scale and vaguely realistic volumes, you're going to need to move more air than your proposed speaker setup allows, especially in your large room. And it will cost more money.

So depending on what you are allowed to put in the living room (and what will fit), I'd drop the sub, up the money for the speakers, and look for a pair of largish floorstanders with 8" or 10" woofers. You can still add subs later, and probably will want to. I don't know where you are and what the local market is. Consider used speakers as well if they are in decent condition and do what you need.

You may need to get out and about - dealers, audiophile and "musician-with-hifi" friends, and listen to some setups before plunging in, if those opportunities are available to you.

 

[duppy_conqueror]

If you are really looking to immerse yourself in orchestral music at scale and vaguely realistic volumes, you're going to need to move more air than your proposed speaker setup allows, especially in your large room. And it will cost more money.

So depending on what you are allowed to put in the living room (and what will fit), I'd drop the sub, up the money for the speakers, and look for a pair of largish floorstanders with 8" or 10" woofers. You can still add subs later, and probably will want to. I don't know where you are and what the local market is. Consider used speakers as well if they are in decent condition and do what you need.

You may need to get out and about - dealers, audiophile and "musician-with-hifi" friends, and listen to some setups before plunging in, if those opportunities are available to you.

That seems like good advice. I'm in the Seattle area and having been here since '19 + the pandemic means friends are...limited. But there are some dealers here beyond Magnolia, so some trips are probably in order.

 

[duppy_conqueror]

I'm talking about its basic capabilities, 8" is more a bass module than a sub. Having bass management is a good thing, altho just in the sub alone is the poorest way to go IMO.

ps If all you've got for bass management is a hpf in the sub, that might be useful but far from ideal.

Huh, maybe that HPF is not worth the rest of the features/capabilities. What do you look for in a sub (loaded, I know)?

 

[Chrispy]

Huh, maybe that HPF is not worth the rest of the features/capabilities. What do you look for in a sub (loaded, I know)?

Just what I need it to do, I build my own. An 8" bass module is not worth buying nor building IMO.

ps maybe for a small room/desktop system such a small bass module might seem effective.

 

[JRS]

Huh, maybe that HPF is not worth the rest of the features/capabilities. What do you look for in a sub (loaded, I know)?

I'm sure if you google something like how big a subwoofer do I need will send you a bunch of sites, some good, some best avoided.

To tell the difference, they should ask questions: like what kind of main speakers do you have? How big is the room? Do you listen at loud volumes? Is this for home theater, mixed or mostly music? If HT, do special effects matter a great deal? If music, what kind of music?

So you are right: it isn't easy to answer w/o first pinning down requirements. My thought is for a typical living room, a min would be one 10" woofer. This would be in addition to your main speakers, which might have 6-7" woofers. But this is a really rough rule of thumb--I have had two different pair of speakers with two six to seven inch drivers per side and were quite satisfying at anything short of very, very loud volumes with demanding bass lines.

Really what you need to be is thinking not in inches, but square inches. While two 6 inch drivers might seem the same as a twelve, they are not.
Area=pi x radius^2 (squared). So a single 6 inch driver is 9 pi or about 28 sq. in. A twelve would be 36 pi sq in or about 112 sq in. So when we double the diameter, we get four times the area.

Now if we look at another case of multiple drivers, we'd find that 2 ten inch drivers would be 2(25 pi) or 50pi--nearly 50% more area than the 12! Two 8 inch drivers=32 pi or almost the same as the 12.

I bother with the detail because yes size matters, but not in an obvious way. A favorite example: two 10's vs a 15" . Turns out they (10 inchers) are almost the same area as the 15 (having about 12% more), and whats more, depending on the room and your main speakers two ten inch woofers in separate cabinets might prove to be much more musically satisfying than the elephant on the corner. This has to do with being able to smooth out the room response with 2 sub woofers versus one bigger one. Cabinetry costs and a great way to save $$ is a DIY project, in some cases the kit includes a precut cabinet and just needs to be glued together (check out Parts Express).

Anyhow, this is obviously something you will need time to educate yourself in--by all means go "shopping" only leave your wallet at home. This is a recon mission to see whats out there and what you like. The more systems you listen to, the greater your appreciation for trade offs--esp $$.

If it were me and I had 2,000 bucks, I'd spend at least half, better yet 1200 on the speakers/stands, and certainly not much more than 250 for a DAC. That leaves 500 for the receiver and fifty for wire/cables (DO NOT FALL PREY TO IT WILL SOUND BETTER IF YOU BUY EXPENSIVE WIRE AND CABLES--I buy wire by the spool from Amazon (16 ga is good) and cables (you wont be needing many) are reasonably well constructed, not too short and the right impedance.

And nothing for the TT. That I would buy next; meanwhile you can be streaming some great orchestral music through a very capable stereo system. Personally, I would also put the sub on hold and get two mains (either floor or stand mounted) that can reliably get into the low to mid forties without unraveling and getting all muddy. There are several 6.5" woofers that can do this with relative ease, and a few extra special versions that can even get reasonably loud while doing so. Someone said look for used. That's golden advice, especially with speakers. But take along a friend and insist on a demo at the volumes you like. Hope this helped.

 

[duppy_conqueror]

I'm sure if you google something like how big a subwoofer do I need will send you a bunch of sites, some good, some best avoided.

To tell the difference, they should ask questions: like what kind of main speakers do you have? How big is the room? Do you listen at loud volumes? Is this for home theater, mixed or mostly music? If HT, do special effects matter a great deal? If music, what kind of music?

So you are right: it isn't easy to answer w/o first pinning down requirements. My thought is for a typical living room, a min would be one 10" woofer. This would be in addition to your main speakers, which might have 6-7" woofers. But this is a really rough rule of thumb--I have had two different pair of speakers with two six to seven inch drivers per side and were quite satisfying at anything short of very, very loud volumes with demanding bass lines.

Really what you need to be is thinking not in inches, but square inches. While two 6 inch drivers might seem the same as a twelve, they are not.
Area=pi x radius^2 (squared). So a single 6 inch driver is 9 pi or about 28 sq. in. A twelve would be 36 pi sq in or about 112 sq in. So when we double the diameter, we get four times the area.

Now if we look at another case of multiple drivers, we'd find that 2 ten inch drivers would be 2(25 pi) or 50pi--nearly 50% more area than the 12! Two 8 inch drivers=32 pi or almost the same as the 12.

I bother with the detail because yes size matters, but not in an obvious way. A favorite example: two 10's vs a 15" . Turns out they (10 inchers) are almost the same area as the 15 (having about 12% more), and whats more, depending on the room and your main speakers two ten inch woofers in separate cabinets might prove to be much more musically satisfying than the elephant on the corner. This has to do with being able to smooth out the room response with 2 sub woofers versus one bigger one. Cabinetry costs and a great way to save $$ is a DIY project, in some cases the kit includes a precut cabinet and just needs to be glued together (check out Parts Express).

Anyhow, this is obviously something you will need time to educate yourself in--by all means go "shopping" only leave your wallet at home. This is a recon mission to see whats out there and what you like. The more systems you listen to, the greater your appreciation for trade offs--esp $$.

If it were me and I had 2,000 bucks, I'd spend at least half, better yet 1200 on the speakers/stands, and certainly not much more than 250 for a DAC. That leaves 500 for the receiver and fifty for wire/cables (DO NOT FALL PREY TO IT WILL SOUND BETTER IF YOU BUY EXPENSIVE WIRE AND CABLES--I buy wire by the spool from Amazon (16 ga is good) and cables (you wont be needing many) are reasonably well constructed, not too short and the right impedance.

And nothing for the TT. That I would buy next; meanwhile you can be streaming some great orchestral music through a very capable stereo system. Personally, I would also put the sub on hold and get two mains (either floor or stand mounted) that can reliably get into the low to mid forties without unraveling and getting all muddy. There are several 6.5" woofers that can do this with relative ease, and a few extra special versions that can even get reasonably loud while doing so. Someone said look for used. That's golden advice, especially with speakers. But take along a friend and insist on a demo at the volumes you like. Hope this helped.

This just an absolutely kick ass post. Thank you so much for the advice, especially the math. I think every situation is unique, but I don't think I'll hear speakers like my space in a show room. But that math gives me something to check things against.

I probably won't do DIY...I don't have the time and I don't want to screw up a speaker. It also will not look nice.

Lastly, this confirms the conclusion I have come too...I know what kit I want for an amp/preamp. But I have no idea what speakers I like and I need to listen to a lot of them. Measurements and reviews are one thing and a guide. Hearing is everything.

I went and heard a pair of Wharfdale Lintons this weekend and THEY WERE BORING (to me)! I didn't get imaging in orchestral music, though I did in Bohemian Rhapsody (though that should be obvious). I played some things with brass (I play the horn) and there was absolutely no sizzle or punch. The experience also taught me to sit down before going to listen and come up with great reference tracks. What do I want to hear and what do I expect? Then what's a track that has that?

- Bohemian Rhapsody is definitely on there.
- Probably Brad Mehldau playing Radioheads Everything in its right place
- The Peter Grimes with Jon Vickers (1979)
- Some Verdi opera overtures or Requiem with Abbado, Aida with Karajan and Vienna, Sibelius 2 with Szell, maybe some Beethoven 5 with Kleiber and Vienna.

That all needs to be paired down and I hit the road.

 

[Chrispy]

I'm sure if you google something like how big a subwoofer do I need will send you a bunch of sites, some good, some best avoided.

To tell the difference, they should ask questions: like what kind of main speakers do you have? How big is the room? Do you listen at loud volumes? Is this for home theater, mixed or mostly music? If HT, do special effects matter a great deal? If music, what kind of music?

So you are right: it isn't easy to answer w/o first pinning down requirements. My thought is for a typical living room, a min would be one 10" woofer. This would be in addition to your main speakers, which might have 6-7" woofers. But this is a really rough rule of thumb--I have had two different pair of speakers with two six to seven inch drivers per side and were quite satisfying at anything short of very, very loud volumes with demanding bass lines.

Really what you need to be is thinking not in inches, but square inches. While two 6 inch drivers might seem the same as a twelve, they are not.
Area=pi x radius^2 (squared). So a single 6 inch driver is 9 pi or about 28 sq. in. A twelve would be 36 pi sq in or about 112 sq in. So when we double the diameter, we get four times the area.

Now if we look at another case of multiple drivers, we'd find that 2 ten inch drivers would be 2(25 pi) or 50pi--nearly 50% more area than the 12! Two 8 inch drivers=32 pi or almost the same as the 12.

I bother with the detail because yes size matters, but not in an obvious way. A favorite example: two 10's vs a 15" . Turns out they (10 inchers) are almost the same area as the 15 (having about 12% more), and whats more, depending on the room and your main speakers two ten inch woofers in separate cabinets might prove to be much more musically satisfying than the elephant on the corner. This has to do with being able to smooth out the room response with 2 sub woofers versus one bigger one. Cabinetry costs and a great way to save $$ is a DIY project, in some cases the kit includes a precut cabinet and just needs to be glued together (check out Parts Express).

Anyhow, this is obviously something you will need time to educate yourself in--by all means go "shopping" only leave your wallet at home. This is a recon mission to see whats out there and what you like. The more systems you listen to, the greater your appreciation for trade offs--esp $$.

If it were me and I had 2,000 bucks, I'd spend at least half, better yet 1200 on the speakers/stands, and certainly not much more than 250 for a DAC. That leaves 500 for the receiver and fifty for wire/cables (DO NOT FALL PREY TO IT WILL SOUND BETTER IF YOU BUY EXPENSIVE WIRE AND CABLES--I buy wire by the spool from Amazon (16 ga is good) and cables (you wont be needing many) are reasonably well constructed, not too short and the right impedance.

And nothing for the TT. That I would buy next; meanwhile you can be streaming some great orchestral music through a very capable stereo system. Personally, I would also put the sub on hold and get two mains (either floor or stand mounted) that can reliably get into the low to mid forties without unraveling and getting all muddy. There are several 6.5" woofers that can do this with relative ease, and a few extra special versions that can even get reasonably loud while doing so. Someone said look for used. That's golden advice, especially with speakers. But take along a friend and insist on a demo at the volumes you like. Hope this helped.

Speakers are cone shaped, so your math is off a bit. This is more accurate https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/SpeakerDriverDisplacement/

 

[LTig]

Really what you need to be is thinking not in inches, but square inches. While two 6 inch drivers might seem the same as a twelve, they are not.
Area=pi x radius^2 (squared). So a single 6 inch driver is 9 pi or about 28 sq. in. A twelve would be 36 pi sq in or about 112 sq in. So when we double the diameter, we get four times the area.

Also a bigger driver usually has more excursion so the volume of air it can move is higher than multiple smaller drivers with the same area.

 

[snaimpally]

Parts Express via Ebay had the BIC F12 12" subwoofer for $215 in early August. Amazon currently has it for $230. There are plenty of reviews of the BIC F12 - just do a search. I did a LOT of research and when I happened across the F12 at the $215 price, I bought it. I am very happy with it. It has a phase switch (would have preferred a fully adjustable phase control), a crossover adjustment, and a level adjustment.

 

[JRS]

Speakers are cone shaped, so your math is off a bit. This is more accurate https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/SpeakerDriverDisplacement/

Of course, they are but the math is a reasonable approximation, and in many cases a larger driver will have greater excursion, but there are tons of counterexamples these days, but usually higher cost.

Lets not lose the forest for the trees--there used to be one way to get decent bass--a 10", preferably a 12" woofer(and before the invention of the "acoustic suspension" thetre were huge contrivances in coffin sized cabinets), now there are more paths, each with certain advantages. As I mentioned I really liked the dual woofer floor standers I had, which on superficial inspection seemed less than imposing, but because of the Vd (long throw woofers x 2 per side) could bump pretty nicely. Now I have these long throw Acoustic Elegance 15" that can blow out a cigar. It's all fun.

This just an absolutely kick ass post. Thank you so much for the advice, especially the math. I think every situation is unique, but I don't think I'll hear speakers like my space in a show room. But that math gives me something to check things against.

I probably won't do DIY...I don't have the time and I don't want to screw up a speaker. It also will not look nice.

Lastly, this confirms the conclusion I have come too...I know what kit I want for an amp/preamp. But I have no idea what speakers I like and I need to listen to a lot of them. Measurements and reviews are one thing and a guide. Hearing is everything.

I went and heard a pair of Wharfdale Lintons this weekend and THEY WERE BORING (to me)! I didn't get imaging in orchestral music, though I did in Bohemian Rhapsody (though that should be obvious). I played some things with brass (I play the horn) and there was absolutely no sizzle or punch. The experience also taught me to sit down before going to listen and come up with great reference tracks. What do I want to hear and what do I expect? Then what's a track that has that?

- Bohemian Rhapsody is definitely on there.
- Probably Brad Mehldau playing Radioheads Everything in its right place
- The Peter Grimes with Jon Vickers (1979)
- Some Verdi opera overtures or Requiem with Abbado, Aida with Karajan and Vienna, Sibelius 2 with Szell, maybe some Beethoven 5 with Kleiber and Vienna.

That all needs to be paired down and I hit the road.

Right on. I recall the days when I dragged vinyl around to audition speakers, now a thumb drive can hold a large enough library of tunes to keep one listening for years. So yes, devise a torture test! I like to listen loud when I need to get my ya-ya's out; so when auditioning I tend to turn things up to volumes that would have the sales guy breaking a sweat, but also astonished at how good the speaker sounded at real venue volumes. Of course I chose my targets wisely.

But your intuition seems to be serving you well--the one other tip I would give is repeat listening. Too many times the synergy of mood, music, and a particularly simpatico tuning of a speaker left me dumbstruck and thinking I have to own these. Never buy when smitten. Cool off, listen to other speakers, come back a week or two later with some less engaging material and see if you are drawn in the same way. Ideally, and this is more often true with audio "salons," one can borrow speakers (amps, DACs etc) for a w/e or more to see how they sound in your own living room. If nothing else is true about audio it is that they never sound the same at home, and require work to set up. There are some kindle books I have read that do a nice job of teaching how to optimize speaker spacement which is arguably the most important piece of the puzzle, BY FAR.

 

[Chrispy]

Lets not lose the forest for the trees--there used to be one way to get decent bass--a 10", preferably a 12" woofer(and before the invention of the "acoustic suspension" thetre were huge contrivances in coffin sized cabinets), now there are more paths, each with certain advantages. As I mentioned I really liked the dual woofer floor standers I had, which on superficial inspection seemed less than imposing, but because of the Vd (long throw woofers x 2 per side) could bump pretty nicely. Now I have these long throw Acoustic Elegance 15" that can blow out a cigar. It's all fun.

Right on. I recall the days when I dragged vinyl around to audition speakers, now a thumb drive can hold a large enough library of tunes to keep one listening for years. So yes, devise a torture test! I like to listen loud when I need to get my ya-ya's out; so when auditioning I tend to turn things up to volumes that would have the sales guy breaking a sweat, but also astonished at how good the speaker sounded at real venue volumes. Of course I chose my targets wisely.

But your intuition seems to be serving you well--the one other tip I would give is repeat listening. Too many times the synergy of mood, music, and a particularly simpatico tuning of a speaker left me dumbstruck and thinking I have to own these. Never buy when smitten. Cool off, listen to other speakers, come back a week or two later with some less engaging material and see if you are drawn in the same way. Ideally, and this is more often true with audio "salons," one can borrow speakers (amps, DACs etc) for a w/e or more to see how they sound in your own living room. If nothing else is true about audio it is that they never sound the same at home, and require work to set up. There are some kindle books I have read that do a nice job of teaching how to optimize speaker spacement which is arguably the most important piece of the puzzle, BY FAR.

Well "decent" turned out generally to be insufficient as I progressed into subs. 12" now seems okay for a small room perhaps

 

[Galliardist]

This just an absolutely kick ass post. Thank you so much for the advice, especially the math. I think every situation is unique, but I don't think I'll hear speakers like my space in a show room. But that math gives me something to check things against.

I probably won't do DIY...I don't have the time and I don't want to screw up a speaker. It also will not look nice.

Lastly, this confirms the conclusion I have come too...I know what kit I want for an amp/preamp. But I have no idea what speakers I like and I need to listen to a lot of them. Measurements and reviews are one thing and a guide. Hearing is everything.

I went and heard a pair of Wharfdale Lintons this weekend and THEY WERE BORING (to me)! I didn't get imaging in orchestral music, though I did in Bohemian Rhapsody (though that should be obvious). I played some things with brass (I play the horn) and there was absolutely no sizzle or punch. The experience also taught me to sit down before going to listen and come up with great reference tracks. What do I want to hear and what do I expect? Then what's a track that has that?

- Bohemian Rhapsody is definitely on there.
- Probably Brad Mehldau playing Radioheads Everything in its right place
- The Peter Grimes with Jon Vickers (1979)
- Some Verdi opera overtures or Requiem with Abbado, Aida with Karajan and Vienna, Sibelius 2 with Szell, maybe some Beethoven 5 with Kleiber and Vienna.

That all needs to be paired down and I hit the road.

Some good replies here. I'll restrict myself to your post rather than joining in on the subs.
The Lintons - they aren't a typical speaker. They're voiced (I have heard them) to sound like people think a decent 1960s speaker should have sounded - distinctly "warm" and not in a good way to my ears. If yours agree, and they might, do audition the Evo 4.3/4.4 which I felt to be a much better speaker - I did audition with classical, but a more modern recording for orchestra (the Pentatone recording of the Dvorak New World).

If you were using a warm sounding recording, the Lintons would have given you somewhat more problems with orchestra, I'd guess.

To test orchestral imaging at a dealer, avoid LP as you can't be sure of their setup, and definitely avoid LPs with long sides where the bass is mono'd above 80Hz. At worst, I've heard the cellos (should be to the right of centre) actually turn into two different instrument groups - centred in their lower notes, and as they should be on the right in the higher ones. It can throw out the whole balance...

 

[duppy_conqueror]

Some good replies here. I'll restrict myself to your post rather than joining in on the subs.
The Lintons - they aren't a typical speaker. They're voiced (I have heard them) to sound like people think a decent 1960s speaker should have sounded - distinctly "warm" and not in a good way to my ears. If yours agree, and they might, do audition the Evo 4.3/4.4 which I felt to be a much better speaker - I did audition with classical, but a more modern recording for orchestra (the Pentatone recording of the Dvorak New World).

If you were using a warm sounding recording, the Lintons would have given you somewhat more problems with orchestra, I'd guess.

To test orchestral imaging at a dealer, avoid LP as you can't be sure of their setup, and definitely avoid LPs with long sides where the bass is mono'd above 80Hz. At worst, I've heard the cellos (should be to the right of centre) actually turn into two different instrument groups - centred in their lower notes, and as they should be on the right in the higher ones. It can throw out the whole balance...

If I was going to be really detailed about it, I'd look up what positioning a particular orchestra uses. For strings, there really are two that I've seen used in the states from left to right:

1st Violins Violas Cellos 2nd Violins (Basses behind the 2nds and Cellos on the right)

and

1st Violins 2nd Violins Violas Cellos (Basses also on the right still)

However, Vienna is always different...they sit 1sts, cello, viola, 2nd violin (Basses in the BACK! behind the cellos and some winds). The brass and winds are in different places as well as the Musikverein has a very small stage. Pittsburgh's conductor is from the Vienna Statsoper/Philharmonic and so he sits them this way.

And if it is opera, then you have no idea how they've crammed an orchestra into the pit.

So if you listen to Beethoven 5th with Vienna, you'll hear the horns to the right, the cello slightly left, and the basses in the back behind them. But if you listen to it with Solti (why would you when you have the above), horns are in back, cellos and basses on the right.

 

[Galliardist]

I didn’t know that the Viennese still kept cellos to the left. I’ll have to keep a look out for that!