Sugden a21se

[Roy_L]

After finding a great pair of speakers (Dynaudio S 3.4), I'm thinking of upgrading (?) the amplification as well, perhaps by going down the Class A route.
My current setup is powered by a set of Audiolab pre (8000C) + power (8000P) from the early 90's, the kind that was still made in the UK (100W in Class AB).

Someone is selling a really nice almost-new Sugden a21se (30W in Class A). Will I be gaining anything by trading power for Class A? Anyone has any opinion (preferably evidence based) on this amp?

Thanks!

 

[mocenigo]

I do not know how it measures, but... the Sugden a21se is a great sounding amp. I would suggest you to pick the Sudden and listen to it, If you do not like it I am sure you can sell it for the price you got it.

 

[Count Arthur]

I wouldn't get hung up on the class A thing, look at the amp leaderboard on this site, all the top performers are class D, with the exception of the Benchmark; I'm not sure what that is, possibly AB.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...fier-review.17302/#lg=attachment91678&slide=0

Incidentally, my previous Dynaudio passive speakers sounded great with a Hypex class D amp and my current Dynaudio active speakers sound great with the inbuilt class D amps, which I believe are made by Pascal.

 

[tw99]

I looked at Sugden's website, where they state their aim is " Rescuing Music From Technology" . Hmm.

The general consensus on ASR is that well designed neutral amplifiers, used within their design limits, will sound the same.

Your speakers aren't very sensitive, so I'd have thought that a 30W amp might also be a bit underpowered.

 

[mocenigo]

I wouldn't get hung up on the class A thing, look at the amp leaderboard on this site, all the top performers are class D, with the exception of the Benchmark; I'm not sure what that is, possibly AB.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...fier-review.17302/#lg=attachment91678&slide=0

Incidentally, my previous Dynaudio passive speakers sounded great with a Hypex class D amp and my current Dynaudio active speakers sound great with the inbuilt class D amps, which I believe are made by Pascal.

The Benchmark AHB2 is a class AB, where the B is actually a class H because of continuously adaptive rails, and with a variable output custom switching power supply.

All this said, the Sugden is a great amp regardless of the class and has a good resale value (something many of the Class D amps that are in the measurement list does not have).

 

[ronwan]

https://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/193850-richard-clark-10000-amplifier-challenge/

 

[Roy_L]

I'm not going for class D amps for the sole reason that the re-sale value is very low, and I like to change things around every now and then.
I'm very happy with my Audiolab Pre-Power (they easily kick the Dynaudio's asses), so I thought that if I go for something else, it would be interesting to try a different approach (i.e. Class A in this case). 30 watts do seem a little borderline...

 

[Koeitje]

Resale value on class D is low? I must be missing something....regardless even if the resale value is lower you get far more performance. I wouldn't get anything that delivers under 50W@8ohm.

Also if resale value is so low, you can get even better deals in Class D. Perhaps you can pick up a Marantz PM-10 at bargain prices?

 

[The Messiah]

Hypothetical question. If the Sugden measured badly would some folk here suddenly not like how it sounds anymore ?

 

[pjug]

I don't know that this would be an upgrade over what you already have. I can't find too much on it, but it looks like the 8000P measures pretty well here, and has 150W or more dynamic power into 8-ohms.
http://www.stereo-amplifier.net/review/46-audiolab-8000p
If you want a new amp, why not just replace the power amp instead of going to integrated? There are plenty of good Class AB options if you don't want Class D.

 

[Roy_L]

Hypothetical question. If the Sugden measured badly would some folk here suddenly not like how it sounds anymore ?

I would not get a badly measured piece of equipment. I need to know that I'm paying for solid engineering and not some sloppy BS. One possible exception- maybe, MAYBE, if I experiment in the future with tube amps, just out of curiosity.

 

[Roy_L]

I don't know that this would be an upgrade over what you already have. I can't find too much on it, but it looks like the 8000P measures pretty well here, and has 150W or more dynamic power into 8-ohms.
http://www.stereo-amplifier.net/review/46-audiolab-8000p
If you want a new amp, why not just replace the power amp instead of going to integrated? There are plenty of good Class AB options if you don't want Class D.

Suddenly these 30 Watts seem even smaller (-;

 

[mocenigo]

Regarding measurements, the A21 series measures quite badly. Your choice. It is a bit as "experiment[ing] in the future with tube amps" – it has its own personality.

 

[mocenigo]

Resale value on class D is low? I must be missing something....regardless even if the resale value is lower you get far more performance. I wouldn't get anything that delivers under 50W@8ohm.

Also if resale value is so low, you can get even better deals in Class D. Perhaps you can pick up a Marantz PM-10 at bargain prices?

It all depends on how much you want to lose. Used "classical" amps ofter resell for the price you got them. Class D amp prices start dropping as soon as there is the new better-measuring class D module.

Do not misunderstand me please, once I went to high-performance class D, I never looked back. An Abrahamsen amp pair (essentially Electrocompaniet) replaced a Naim, then a NC500 replaced the Abrahamsen, and that was the turning point. Now I have my own Purifi build and to me this is essentially ultimate.

 

[The Messiah]

Regarding measurements, the A21 series measures quite badly. Your choice. It is a bit as "experiment[ing] in the future with tube amps" – it has its own personality.

Interesting,,, As its very highly regarded by so many people for years my takeaway would be that measurements are not everything.

 

[Koeitje]

It all depends on how much you want to lose. Used "classical" amps ofter resell for the price you got them. Class D amp prices start dropping as soon as there is the new better-measuring class D module.

Do not misunderstand me please, once I went to high-performance class D, I never looked back. An Abrahamsen amp pair (essentially Electrocompaniet) replaced a Naim, then a NC500 replaced the Abrahamsen, and that was the turning point. Now I have my own Purifi build and to me this is essentially ultimate.

That is probably only really to case for amplifiers from manufacturers that make stuff that is pretty close to DIY like March Audio or Nord. I don't see the Marantz PM-10 or NAD Master series amplifiers drop in price as hard (apart from the price drop when a new model comes out, but that is the same for Class A). These amplifiers might give the performance the more pure designs give, but they still crush 99% of class AB amplifiers and most class A (especially if you look at price/watt).

Interesting,,, As its very highly regarded by so many people for years my takeaway would be that measurements are not everything.

Psycho-acoustics are indeed a wonderful thing.

 

[MZKM]

Interesting,,, As its very highly regarded by so many people for years my takeaway would be that measurements are not everything.

Even poor measurements sound fine (within reason). It’s more about getting the best bang for buck.

In any case, looking at pics of the amp in question, hard pass; I hate the looks.

 

[MrHifiTunes]

I'm not going for class D amps for the sole reason that the re-sale value is very low, and I like to change things around every now and then.
I'm very happy with my Audiolab Pre-Power (they easily kick the Dynaudio's asses), so I thought that if I go for something else, it would be interesting to try a different approach (i.e. Class A in this case). 30 watts do seem a little borderline...

I went from my Arcam aphla 10 to a Sugden A21SE. Never regret it. Sounds more natural and smooth. The Arcam was very powerful (100Watt, 800VA powersupply, 25A) I feel the Sugden miss a little in the bass compared to the Arcam. But I would never go back to the arcam after this experience. I use a REL sub so the bass is strong and powerfull enough.

 

[MrHifiTunes]

Suddenly these 30 Watts seem even smaller (-;

my Sugden A21SE sound as powerful as my arcam alpha 10 which it replaced. Don't think 30 Watt isn't enough. Most of your listing time you only need a few watts.

 

[MrMeaner]

I went from Arcam to Audiolab and now I’m with the Sugden A21se and the watts per channel thing is really missing the point, this amp is a powerhouse, I’m using KEF R3 Loudspeakers and they do not sound or feel like they need more, the Sugden sounds more muscular by far, and as noted above you will always be able to get your money back on a resale if you wished.