Subwoofers make all big speakers obsolete?

[chang]

Dual subs should help

Was thinking the same

 

[Chrispy]

Yeah, I should probably see if room integration helps the issue before anything else. Thanks for the recommendations, I completely forgot about Hsu and Power. I wish RSL made a smaller sub, their reviews are nothing short of amazing. Which diy kits/brands do you like? I really appreciate the feedback, it's been very helpful.

Meant to ask, what about the Rel's measures so poorly?

Small subs are simply a compromise IMO (sort of like Hoffman's Iron Law of speaker building). RSL's 10S is fairly small for what it is. I didn't build from kits per se, built my own boxes using dimensions from modeling for specific drivers. Dayton/Parts Express has some nice drivers for reasonable money that you can find quite a few modeled designs for in various diy fora. You might see what Meniscus has before they close their doors.

Finding 3rd party measurements for Rel can be a challenge, but basically they don't have particularly good extension for their cost; some think their aesthetic is worth the price, but I don't see it. Then there's the nonsense about their speaker level input....

 

[Willem]

You can have two out of three: price, size and output. Small and relatively powerful subs that extend quite low do exist, but at a price, particularly if you opt for the ultimate, of dual opposed drivers. For sound quality, nothing beats proper room integration of dual (or more) room equalized subs. Multiple small subs can have about the same extension and spl as larger single ones, but will sound better, particularly with dsp room eq.

 

[dlaloum]

Yeah, they look great but are so damn expensive

I have a Gallo TR1 - it is getting elderly at around 12+ years old now - but it still gives the goods - it is a very "tight" musical sub - not one designed for huge SPL's, it is designed to match up with satellites to complete a "full range" speaker...

You can typically pick these up relatively cheaply used.... (TR1, TR2, TR3 ... the higher / bigger models put out more SPL's)

 

[dlaloum]

Small subs are simply a compromise IMO (sort of like Hoffman's Iron Law of speaker building). RSL's 10S is fairly small for what it is. I didn't build from kits per se, built my own boxes using dimensions from modeling for specific drivers. Dayton/Parts Express has some nice drivers for reasonable money that you can find quite a few modeled designs for in various diy fora. You might see what Meniscus has before they close their doors.

Finding 3rd party measurements for Rel can be a challenge, but basically they don't have particularly good extension for their cost; some think their aesthetic is worth the price, but I don't see it. Then there's the nonsense about their speaker level input....

There are some benefits to smaller subs - it is easier to get good impulse response from a small sealed sub...

So small economical sealed subs, although sacrificing SPL's, do bring low distortion performance at an economical price...

 

[Chrispy]

There are some benefits to smaller subs - it is easier to get good impulse response from a small sealed sub...

At what frequencies?

 

[NIN]

Depending on what people listen to and at what SPL. I really need big speaker because I want to reproduce above 80Hz with high SPL and with low distortion. Like I listen to electronic music rather loud sometimes and that requires a lot.
A favorite "torture test song" I like is Trentemøller - Vamp from The last resort album. It can be played rather loud (IMO) because of the frequency response drops well after about 100hz, but it still have a big boost at 80-100Hz and rather low dynamic range. Listen to that at 80-85dBA can stress smaller speaker.

 

[dlaloum]

At what frequencies?

150Hz down to circa 24Hz

Most "subs" on the market aren't subs at all, as their focus is the low bass range, and not infrasonics (true subs)

But then the Dolby standard for the LFE channel only requires performance down to 35Hz from memory!!

 

[Chrispy]

150Hz down to circa 24Hz

Most "subs" on the market aren't subs at all, as their focus is the low bass range, and not infrasonics (true subs)

But then the Dolby standard for the LFE channel only requires performance down to 35Hz from memory!!

24hz for a small sub might be a stretch, and at what spl/distortion level? True subs generally refers to good 20hz response capability rather than infrasonics from what I've seen (altho infrasonics would be a bonus!). Made me look, the Dolby Atmos theater reco for the screen sub (less for surround subs) is 31.5 hz https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/cinema-products---documents/dolby-atmos-specifications.pdf

 

[EJ3]

I would have thought audio to the average consumer means BT speakers and soundbars these days regardless of where they live.

Interesting, the only person that I know using Bluetooth has it because he can connect his hearing aids to his phone or TV that way. He has a 5.1 system that he uses for movies but mostly watches TV in 2.1. I sometimes (rarely) use Bluetooth to send music from my computer (upstairs bedroom) through 2 walls to my 2.2 channel stereo that is also connected to my TV & oPPo 205 UDP. I haven't had cable since 2007. Most other folks I know just use 2 channel stereo (which their TV also goes through so they can hear voices clearly).
Welcome to Charleston, SC, USA, apparently a large stereo/AVR dead zone. (which it was NOT in the 60's, 70's, 80's but has been since the early 2000's. It seems that the more people come here, the less you see anyone that has any decent gear).

 

[chang]

You can have two out of three: price, size and output. Small and relatively powerful subs that extend quite low do exist, but at a price, particularly if you opt for the ultimate, of dual opposed drivers. For sound quality, nothing beats proper room integration of dual (or more) room equalized subs. Multiple small subs can have about the same extension and spl as larger single ones, but will sound better, particularly with dsp room eq.

Yeah, think I'm leaning towards a dual setup. That way I can keep it small with good integration

 

[chang]

I have a Gallo TR1 - it is getting elderly at around 12+ years old now - but it still gives the goods - it is a very "tight" musical sub - not one designed for huge SPL's, it is designed to match up with satellites to complete a "full range" speaker...

You can typically pick these up relatively cheaply used.... (TR1, TR2, TR3 ... the higher / bigger models put out more SPL's)

Thank you... first time I've heard of them

 

[chang]

Small subs are simply a compromise IMO (sort of like Hoffman's Iron Law of speaker building). RSL's 10S is fairly small for what it is. I didn't build from kits per se, built my own boxes using dimensions from modeling for specific drivers. Dayton/Parts Express has some nice drivers for reasonable money that you can find quite a few modeled designs for in various diy fora. You might see what Meniscus has before they close their doors.

Finding 3rd party measurements for Rel can be a challenge, but basically they don't have particularly good extension for their cost; some think their aesthetic is worth the price, but I don't see it. Then there's the nonsense about their speaker level input....

I'm sure to some extent it is... however being tight on space limits the options

 

[Chrispy]

You can have two out of three: price, size and output. Small and relatively powerful subs that extend quite low do exist, but at a price, particularly if you opt for the ultimate, of dual opposed drivers. For sound quality, nothing beats proper room integration of dual (or more) room equalized subs. Multiple small subs can have about the same extension and spl as larger single ones, but will sound better, particularly with dsp room eq.

Multiple identical subs are still mostly limited by their inherent extension; room gain may help out, tho.

 

[Chrispy]

I'm sure to some extent it is... however being tight on space limits the options

As well as WAF I know....I'm spoiled.

 

[DonR]

Interesting, the only person that I know using Bluetooth has it because he can connect his hearing aids to his phone or TV that way. He has a 5.1 system that he uses for movies but mostly watches TV in 2.1. I sometimes (rarely) use Bluetooth to send music from my computer (upstairs bedroom) through 2 walls to my 2.2 channel stereo that is also connected to my TV & oPPo 205 UDP. I haven't had cable since 2007. Most other folks I know just use 2 channel stereo (which their TV also goes through so they can hear voices clearly).
Welcome to Charleston, SC, USA, apparently a large stereo/AVR dead zone. (which it was NOT in the 60's, 70's, 80's but has been since the early 2000's. It seems that the more people come here, the less you see anyone that has any decent gear).

Very popular at construction sites. Every one of my adult children, nephews and nieces owns at least one BT speaker. Definitely a younger people thing.

 

[Chrispy]

I sometimes (rarely) use Bluetooth to send music from my computer (upstairs bedroom) through 2 walls to my 2.2 channel stereo that is also connected to my TV & oPPo 205 UDP. I haven't had cable since 2007.

You use BT rather than wifi/network for that connection?

 

[chang]

As well as WAF I know....I'm spoiled.

Haha, without a doubt!

 

[DonH56]

My room is fairly small but dimensions are near-multiples (13'3" W x 17'7" L x 8'6" H) so have some significant modal nulls. I did not want nor really have room for great big subs, do not need the extra output, but did need several to counter the nulls. I ended up with four Rythmik F12 sealed 12" subs. With room gain I am -3 dB around 7 Hz with enough output to satisfy my kids (and way more than enough for me). The choice of sub size and number does not have a simple one size fits all answer IME/IMO.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[chang]

My room is fairly small but dimensions are near-multiples (13'3" W x 17'7" L x 8'6" H) so have some significant modal nulls. I did not want nor really have room for great big subs, do not need the extra output, but did not several to counter the nulls. I ended up with four Rythmik F12 sealed 12" subs. With room gain I am -3 dB around 7 Hz with enough output to satisfy my kids (and way more than enough for me). The choice of sub size and number does not have a simple one size fits all answer IME/IMO.

FWIWFM - Don

Room size has been one of the more difficult assessments in choosing a sub. I don't know what classifies as a small room compared to a medium one. Mine is very similar to yours, only 4' longer. I felt an 8" was enough for my tastes when I tested one, couldn't imagine two 12's