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Subwoofer dilemma

Peluvius

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I have a dilemma and I was hoping for some alternative perspective....

My home theatre room, which also doubles as the family TV room is running Genelec 8341 (center), 8340 (front L+R), paradigm atoms for rear surrounds and a PB12/2 plus as a sub. Movies only really, very little dedicated music listening.

I do not have any flexibility in sub placement due to the room layout and my preference for a happy wife (over potentially improved bass).

I use GLM to tune the front three and YPAO to calibrate the surrounds and sub, then level match them all with a meter.

My dilemma is whether I should continue to fiddle with my existing sub (REW, run the LFE through miniDSP for EQ, fiddle) or will I get an improved result in terms of system and room optimisation going with a Genelec sub and using GLM?

I can get the bass to what I think it pretty good but it is as good as it can be? It is fully integrated with my mains? I feel like I have reached a point of diminishing return in terms of fiddling with the sub and AVR EQ for the PB12 sub. Will the Genelec sub calibrated to the front three and my room be as good as Bass will get in the room? How much better would this be over my own tuning using the existing sub? I can't audition the Genelec sub so a purchase would be based on a hopefully informed view that there would be a sufficient improvement to warrant the not insignificant expense of a 7370a....

Should I forget a different sub and look at Dirac live options....?

I am particularly interested to hear from anyone who has moved from a third party sub with a Genelec setup and noticed any difference using the GLM calibration in terms of improved integration.

I appreciate your thoughts.
 

AdamG247

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We would need to see a room Frequency Response sweep chart and a room layout diagram or pictures of the room. Bass tuning is very room dependent and cubic feet of space is also a factor. If the room can’t be sealed with door’s you should include all connected rooms, halls, cubby in total Cubic feet calculations. So please tell us more. Do you have a microphone and REW?

On edit: assuming this is the sub you have now?
SVS PB-12 Sub
 
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Peluvius

Peluvius

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Thank you for your questions. I use a UMM-6 with REW. Attached is the last Grade report I ran in the room but this is just for the Generic front three. The room does have two relevant "extension" areas, I will draw something up and post it to give a better idea of the room. I will also take some sweep measurements with REW and post them, I haven't got anything saved.
 

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  • Genelec GRADE Report 2022-07-24[65].pdf
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DVDdoug

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IMO - With movies (booms & explosions) it's not as critical as long as the bass is adequate. It could be an issue if you are using bass management (sending the bass from the other channels to the sub) if that makes male voices sound unnatural. Or if the low frequency effects have some kind of unnatural resonance.

With music, flat-smooth bass is more important.
 
OP
Peluvius

Peluvius

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The sub is this one but with a newer amp (900w BASH) which gives me two PEQ frequencies to adjust;

 

AdamG247

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The sub is this one but with a newer amp (900w BASH) which gives me two PEQ frequencies to adjust;

OK, it’s the PB12 Plus. Copy.
 

diaolodoro

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I'm not familiar with Genelec's GLM or their subs but the SVS is an awesome subwoofer for the price. If you can't move the subwoofer or add thick insulation materials (basstraps), I think it's not worth buying such an expensive sub, because it will still get compromised by the room/wife.
Also if I recall correctly, Dirac has a free trial if you want to try it.
 

NiagaraPete

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Genelec's GLM or their subs
He’s not using Genelec subs unless I’ve read this wrong.

It does sound to me though “OP” you have a mishmash of stuff that may not be / or maybe does work together.
 
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Peluvius

Peluvius

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I'm not familiar with Genelec's GLM or their subs but the SVS is an awesome subwoofer for the price. If you can't move the subwoofer or add thick insulation materials (basstraps), I think it's not worth buying such an expensive sub, because it will still get compromised by the room/wife.
Also if I recall correctly, Dirac has a free trial if you want to try it.
The SVS is an awesome sub and I am still very happy with it. Just not sure if it is as good as it can be and in particular if it is as good as a calibrated Gelelec sub, not an easy one for you guys to comment on I understand. I need hardware to implement the Dirac EQ, that’s the rub….

He’s not using Genelec subs unless I’ve read this wrong.

It does sound to me though “OP” you have a mishmash of stuff that may not be / or maybe does work together.

correct, I am not yet using a Genelec sub. Yes a mishmash……I am progressively upgrading from a paradigm setup to Genelec. i intend to move the 8040s to the rear and put 8351s as front L & R in the next year or so. The Atoms are a very good tonal match to the fronts surprisingly so it is not as bad as it sounds! I am actually very happy with the sound at the moment bar confidence the bass is optimised.
 

FeddyLost

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IMO the most flexible and sophisticated MiniDSP solution with Dirac Live will be much cheaper than 7370.
And I'm sure that in terms of subwoofer integration (Is it correct term - integration? In case of single sub for movies with dedicated LFE?) it will not be bad at all.
I'd go fiddling without any doubt.
 

diaolodoro

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Honestly your budget seems very high and feels like a "best of the best" setup. If I had that budget I'd also buy the genelec subwoofer just for the irrational gratification of having a complete genelec setup. But it would be just that - "irrational". I would not expect big improvements in sound (at least not proportional to the price).
Personally I use Sonarworks for my speakers and REW for my subwoofer(s), because I can manually take multiple measurements in the room. While both software are amazing, eqing the bass frequencies is always very tricky and I just wouldn't expect GLM or Dirac to magically fix every problem with the room in the sub frequencies. Having dual subwoofers can help a ton, but generally speaking you cannot achieve "perfect" bass if you don't have MASSIVE acoustic isolation in room. At least I couldn't...
So there you go, writing a comment that might create more questions than answers. It's always like that, isn't it :D
 
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Peluvius

Peluvius

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So here is a sweep of the room using REW from the primary listening position, no EQ applied. I am new to these measurements so please let me know if additional data is required to get an idea of the Bass in my room.


Sub sweep 040822.jpg



Here is a layout of the room and surrounds. Ceiling is 2,6m. The right surround is above the sub in terms of a top down view in case that bit of my drawing is unclear.

Loungeroom1.png
 
OP
Peluvius

Peluvius

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Honestly your budget seems very high and feels like a "best of the best" setup. If I had that budget I'd also buy the genelec subwoofer just for the irrational gratification of having a complete genelec setup. But it would be just that - "irrational". I would not expect big improvements in sound (at least not proportional to the price).
Personally I use Sonarworks for my speakers and REW for my subwoofer(s), because I can manually take multiple measurements in the room. While both software are amazing, eqing the bass frequencies is always very tricky and I just wouldn't expect GLM or Dirac to magically fix every problem with the room in the sub frequencies. Having dual subwoofers can help a ton, but generally speaking you cannot achieve "perfect" bass if you don't have MASSIVE acoustic isolation in room. At least I couldn't...
So there you go, writing a comment that might create more questions than answers. It's always like that, isn't it :D

This is an important point you make, thank you. Without confidence (GLM) EQ will adequately address some of my room issues, why would I invest in a 6k sub.... that is my dilemma. I enjoy using measurements to get a better feel for what is going on in my room and learning more about using REW so there is no problem for me to continue with that for the time being either.....
 

FeddyLost

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Without confidence (GLM) EQ will adequately address some of my room issues
IMO that can be only checked "live".
It would be more useful if you measure sub responce 18-150 Hz with better resolution with least smoothing possible and show waterfall and distortion...
I see no reason for applying expensive GLM subwoofer for home cinema only, when this sub must handle only LFE channel.
With such budget (6K?) I'd try good miniDSP and more than one consumer subs if possible. After evaluation of your SPL needs.
 

FrantzM

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Dead serious suggestion: . Do yo have an attic over the listening area? One in which people can crawl? That is one place where you can install virtually invisible subwoofers. If you go that route, and are comfortable with a bit of surgery , somewhat definitive, the sky (pun intended :D) is the limit.
I don't know anything about GLM, only that it is a good solution. Genelec is a serious company, their products reflect that but it isn't a panacea, and IMHO Genelec subwoofers are expensive and ugly ... a sample:
Genelec_subwoofers_IBC_2008.jpg


some are bigger and uglier still:

THis one is 1.5 meter wide (!!) and almost .7 meter high... I will spare its depth, weightand price....

1659608921717.png

You mentioned keeping your wife happy ;)

There are other, even better ways to attack the reproduction of low bass in the home or studio environment. These are not easy or walk-in-the-park type of solutions. They will take time to implement. These will involve measurements, lot of it. EQ and DSP. You will have to research and work , perhaps with some people but with such a budget (LK) can be achieved. If you are interested and willing to explore it and especially have an attic, and are not adverse to put "things" in it, then .. yeah you can have bass throughout the room, the like of it people can only dream about.


Let us know.

Peace
 

paulrbarnard

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Dead serious suggestion: . Do yo have an attic over the listening area? One in which people can crawl? That is one place where you can install virtually invisible subwoofers. If you go that route, and are comfortable with a bit of surgery , somewhat definitive, the sky (pun intended :D) is the limit.
I don't know anything about GLM, only that it is a good solution. Genelec is a serious company, their products reflect that but it isn't a panacea, and IMHO Genelec subwoofers are expensive and ugly ... a sample:
Genelec_subwoofers_IBC_2008.jpg


some are bigger and uglier still:

THis one is 1.5 meter wide (!!) and almost .7 meter high... I will spare its depth, weightand price....

View attachment 222284
You mentioned keeping your wife happy ;)

There are other, even better ways to attack the reproduction of low bass in the home or studio environment. These are not easy or walk-in-the-park type of solutions. They will take time to implement. These will involve measurements, lot of it. EQ and DSP. You will have to research and work , perhaps with some people but with such a budget (LK) can be achieved. If you are interested and willing to explore it and especially have an attic, and are not adverse to put "things" in it, then .. yeah you can have bass throughout the room, the like of it people can only dream about.


Let us know.

Peace
Nice, doubles up as a TV stand. Wife might not even notice it’s a sub
 

Tangband

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I have a dilemma and I was hoping for some alternative perspective....

My home theatre room, which also doubles as the family TV room is running Genelec 8341 (center), 8340 (front L+R), paradigm atoms for rear surrounds and a PB12/2 plus as a sub. Movies only really, very little dedicated music listening.

I do not have any flexibility in sub placement due to the room layout and my preference for a happy wife (over potentially improved bass).

I use GLM to tune the front three and YPAO to calibrate the surrounds and sub, then level match them all with a meter.

My dilemma is whether I should continue to fiddle with my existing sub (REW, run the LFE through miniDSP for EQ, fiddle) or will I get an improved result in terms of system and room optimisation going with a Genelec sub and using GLM?

I can get the bass to what I think it pretty good but it is as good as it can be? It is fully integrated with my mains? I feel like I have reached a point of diminishing return in terms of fiddling with the sub and AVR EQ for the PB12 sub. Will the Genelec sub calibrated to the front three and my room be as good as Bass will get in the room? How much better would this be over my own tuning using the existing sub? I can't audition the Genelec sub so a purchase would be based on a hopefully informed view that there would be a sufficient improvement to warrant the not insignificant expense of a 7370a....

Should I forget a different sub and look at Dirac live options....?

I am particularly interested to hear from anyone who has moved from a third party sub with a Genelec setup and noticed any difference using the GLM calibration in terms of improved integration.

I appreciate your thoughts.
The smaller Genelec 7360 will probably give you a better , more articulated bass down to 18 Hz even before you have calibrated with GLM.
The subwoofer will have the correct crossover slopes ( the right order of steepness ) to fit with 8340.
The SVS 24 dB/oct is not the correct crossover slope to 8340.
I have a friend that has moved from two SVS PB12 to two 7360 in a non Genelec setup, and there are no contest, - the Genelecs sounds better with a more articulated lowbass.

On paper the SVS looks like it can play a little louder having a 12 inch woofer, and that might also be true, but the Genelec specs are accurate as we know by now.

Regarding subwoofers, correct integration is everything, much more important than highest SPL and GLM will give you exactly this, and at the same time liberate you from fiddling around with your REW microphone.
 
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Hayabusa

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So here is a sweep of the room using REW from the primary listening position, no EQ applied. I am new to these measurements so please let me know if additional data is required to get an idea of the Bass in my room.


View attachment 222190


Here is a layout of the room and surrounds. Ceiling is 2,6m. The right surround is above the sub in terms of a top down view in case that bit of my drawing is unclear.

??? output downto 3Hz? Can't be right...
 

diaolodoro

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This is an important point you make, thank you. Without confidence (GLM) EQ will adequately address some of my room issues, why would I invest in a 6k sub.... that is my dilemma. I enjoy using measurements to get a better feel for what is going on in my room and learning more about using REW so there is no problem for me to continue with that for the time being either.....
Have you thought about getting a cheaper Genelec Subwoofer like the 7360A? (not sure if it fits your needs with GLM) If you think you're getting better results compared to the SVS, you can even buy a second genelec and sell your SVS. Or you can experiment with one 7360A and the SVS together. You can use the SVS only for the lower frequencies (for example 10hz - 35hz)

This is also my current little project. Two subwoofers in the room, one big, one small. I use a DIY 120 liter 12' inch for the very low frequencies (10-45hz) and a smaller 8' subwoofer for punchier/tighter bass >50hz. I'm having trouble with the measurements, but I'm getting there and I think it will be a great setup.

Also, if for whatever reason you want to sell your Genelec subwoofer, you'd be able to sell the model 7360A much easier/faster than the 6k one.
 
OP
Peluvius

Peluvius

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IMO that can be only checked "live".
It would be more useful if you measure sub responce 18-150 Hz with better resolution with least smoothing possible and show waterfall and distortion...
I see no reason for applying expensive GLM subwoofer for home cinema only, when this sub must handle only LFE channel.
With such budget (6K?) I'd try good miniDSP and more than one consumer subs if possible. After evaluation of your SPL needs.

I will take some measurements in this range and put them up. The sweep data above has no smoothing applied (if I have properly used the software that is.....).

I am using my AVR as a crossover below 60Hz so the LFE is picking up all audio detail in that range and putting it to the sub.

Dead serious suggestion: . Do yo have an attic over the listening area? One in which people can crawl? That is one place where you can install virtually invisible subwoofers. If you go that route, and are comfortable with a bit of surgery , somewhat definitive, the sky (pun intended :D) is the limit.
I don't know anything about GLM, only that it is a good solution. Genelec is a serious company, their products reflect that but it isn't a panacea, and IMHO Genelec subwoofers are expensive and ugly ... a sample:

I don't have any accessible ceiling space unfortunately. In the looks department keep in mind this is what I have now:

svs-pb12-plus-front-gloss.jpeg


The area is a designated sub space so it won't really matter it it is this or the Genelec but I agree it is expensive although I do not mind the industrial look at all, looks like it means business :). Maybe this is the price I need to pay for proper integration with my other Genelecs...?

Nice, doubles up as a TV stand. Wife might not even notice it’s a sub

It does have a few loungeroomy things on top of it and most people wouldn't notice it is a sub unless they knew what they were looking for.

The smaller Genelec 7360 will probably give you a better , more articulated bass down to 18 Hz even before you have calibrated with GLM.
The subwoofer will have the correct crossover slopes ( the right order of steepness ) to fit with 8340.
The SVS 24 dB/oct is not the correct crossover slope to 8340.
I have a friend that has moved from two SVS PB12 to two 7360 in a non Genelec setup, and there are no contest, - the Genelecs sounds better with a more articulated lowbass.

On paper the SVS looks like it can play a little louder having a 12 inch woofer, and that might also be true, but the Genelec specs are accurate as we know by now.

Regarding subwoofers, correct integration is everything, much more important than highest SPL and GLM will give you exactly this, and at the same time liberate you from fiddling around with your REW microphone.

I had considered the 7360A however it is rated for a smaller space and I am concerned it won't really give me slam for movies that require that punchiness. I think it would do an excellent job for most music I listen to however.

I have the Sledge amp from the later model which gives me control over slope so I can set to 12db (which I think is a better match for the Genelecs). The integration is the key consideration also (maybe even more critical) and I agree that this option would give me confidence that this was achieved even at the cost of a bit of punch....decisions, decisions.... maybe two :)

??? output downto 3Hz? Can't be right...

This is the image as it was produced. A 3Hz wave is about 115m long so I agree it is curious as to how this would actually feel in terms of reproduction. Does this perhaps suggest I am not using the software properly?

Have you thought about getting a cheaper Genelec Subwoofer like the 7360A? (not sure if it fits your needs with GLM) If you think you're getting better results compared to the SVS, you can even buy a second genelec and sell your SVS. Or you can experiment with one 7360A and the SVS together. You can use the SVS only for the lower frequencies (for example 10hz - 35hz)

This is also my current little project. Two subwoofers in the room, one big, one small. I use a DIY 120 liter 12' inch for the very low frequencies (10-45hz) and a smaller 8' subwoofer for punchier/tighter bass >50hz. I'm having trouble with the measurements, but I'm getting there and I think it will be a great setup.

Also, if for whatever reason you want to sell your Genelec subwoofer, you'd be able to sell the model 7360A much easier/faster than the 6k one.

I like this suggestion, thank you. It may be what I end up doing but as I mention above I am not sure it will give me the slam I like on some soundtracks in this space. If I go for the 7360A and it works I would probably want to go for the 7370A before too long. ....:facepalm:
 
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