Steve Wozniak weighs in on right to repair

[MakeMineVinyl]

...also, we need an apple pie sucks thread

We can test various apple pies to see which has the best SINAD.

 

[q3cpma]

You can apply that particular type of logic to many things in consumer space to show that those users are hypocritical. So let me extend your set of hypocritical users to those that use iPhone or Android.

I look down on smartphone users too, but you don't really have easy to use alternatives, so it's somehow understandable.

What OS is on your mobile phone, if you have one?

Samsung dumbphone, used only as a phone and nothing else.

Anyone who's been running windows since the earliest days has evolved with it, fought with it and tweaked the hell out of it to make the OS work the way they want. I find the sweet spot about 5-7 years. WFWG3.11, Win95, WinXP, Win7 and Win10. Skipped all the crap in between on my main machines. There is zero point going to Win11, in fact it could be Win13 (if there is one) before I change a thing.

Windows is popular enough that there is often a hack or workaround for whatever you need.

At the moment, beating Windows into shape once every 5 to 7 years seems like a lot less work than trying to get dozens of games to run in Wine over the same period.

That's simply not true, and I say that as someone who did tweak/rice Win7 a lot. Some stuff is possible with register hacks and other unworldly practices, but being "allowed" to live in an aquarium isn't the same as the ocean; the imagination of what a computer environment can do is often stifled by years of Windows usage, but I certainly woke up after discovering UNIX (or more specifically the UNIX philosophy, SUS/POSIX itself is the prime example of "good enough is the enemy of better", burdened by very weighty historical baggage), bspwm/sxhkd/FUSE/dm/etc... and Plan 9.

To be honest, a lot is possible on Windows by poking at some ungodly places and its kernel API can be quite powerful at times (it took Linux epoll and io_uring to reach the power of IOCP and RIO, IMO), but for the enthusiast interested in userspace, nothing beats an OS that's actually cooperating and provides very consistent and orthogonal interfaces/IPC to build upon. To make a programming comparison, if Windows is Java (incl. its good points), modern UNIX is Lisp or Tcl (incl. the few but existing warts).


Now, I didn't want to start a topic by itself, just wanted to stir the beehive a bit for fun, but I do stand by what I said: if you're really interested in repairability, I don't see how you can ignore the same issue on the software side; even if convenience or professional obligations may lock you into a platform.

 

[Superdad]

Even McDonald's has fought against right-to-repair--of their own darn finicky ice cream machines!
This is a great story:
https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-makers-started-cold-war/

 

[misterdog]

I've been sitting on the fence for months waiting for an unlocked 12 Pro to go on sale and it never seems to happen!

As opposed to a Xiomi Poco X3 for £160, this is the issue.

https://m.gsmarena.com/poco_x3_nfc-review-2166.php

 

[Ron Texas]

One of my favorite right to repair bitches is Nikon. When I adopted the Nikon system they sold parts to any repair shop. Later they changed to making parts available to 30 certified independent repair shops which had a minimum investment of $30,000. Some gear could be fixed only at Nikon's 2 shops. Most of the 30 could only repair a small subset of bodies and lenses. Next Nikon terminated their agreements with the independents creating a repair monopoly. During the pandemic they shuttered the two facilities leaving anyone who wasn't covered by Nikon Professional Services up shit creek. NPS members could get loaners.

 

[Trell]

I look down on smartphone users too, but you don't really have easy to use alternatives, so it's somehow understandable.

Samsung dumbphone, used only as a phone and nothing else.

That Samsung dumbphone is running proprietary firmware to function, even to just make a call. Do you consider yourself hypocritical? Do you look down on yourself?

 

[q3cpma]

That Samsung dumbphone is running proprietary firmware to function, even to just make a call. The only hypocritical here is you.

You know what a nirvana fallacy is, right? If I could go without cell phone, I would.

 

[JeffS7444]

This is certainly the most practical way of doing so. The same reasons that make ease/right of repairing your electronics yourself precious apply to free software, though; even if both are quite hard if you don't the skills.
BTW, I suggest you look at Wine, most userspace applications (especially the popular ones such as Adobeware) not depending on specific drivers should work quite well.

Yes I have used WINE, and even emulated old Apple Macintosh computers. I have been using various Linux distros off and on since the days when Red Hat and SuSE were sold in retail stores.

If Microsoft decides not to support W11 on my Skylake i7 notebook or Kaby Lake i7 desktop PCs, then some flavor of Linux becomes an obvious alternative.

I've generally been happy with Apple iOS and OS X support. I usually keep Apple hardware long enough that the hardware becomes obsolete.

 

[Trell]

You know what a nirvana fallacy is, do you?

Please enlighten me!

If I could go without cell phone, I would.

By your own words in this thread you must look down upon yourself as well as being a hypocrite.

 

[Blumlein 88]

You know what a nirvana fallacy is, right? If I could go without cell phone, I would.

I think you are illustrating the Nirvana fallacy in regard to modern computer OS. I agree with the repairability issue with modern OS's, but the idea I need to learn enough to work around all that or consider myself a hypocrit is a bit tooooo precious!

 

[q3cpma]

Please enlighten me!

Something isn't wrong just because it doesn't match a perfect, idealized and unrealistic goal. A cellphone is bad from a hardware/software repairability point of view, but it's better than literal Orwellian devices with often old vulnerable Linux versions left-to-die-without-updates while connecting to the Internet with massive security holes known as modern web browsers.

By your own words in this thread you must look down upon yourself as well as being a hypocrite.

My words were "it's hypocritical to care about hardware but completely ignore software on that matter". I clearly care, even if I don't have a choice on the cell phone matter; it's simply expected of me for professional reasons, like a lot of people.

I think you are illustrating the Nirvana fallacy in regard to modern computer OS. I agree with the repairability issue with modern OS's, but the idea I need to learn enough to work around all that or consider myself a hypocrit is a bit tooooo precious!

Well, certainly, but caring isn't the same as being able to do it yourself. How many people here care about this thread's topic and can't do these repairs themselves? I do raise my hand.

 

[SIY]

If you don't like a repair, warranty, or spare parts policy, don't buy the product.

My issue is with companies who actually forbid the owners of the products from doing repairs, as opposed to the companies choosing which and how many spare parts to carry and to whom they sell the parts. Under warranties, of course, the companies can absolutely control who works on them in consideration of the warranty, i.e., if you open it up, warranty void. But past that, it's mine, I bought it, and I can spindle, fold, or mutilate at will.

 

[Ron Texas]

I look down on smartphone users too, but you don't really have easy to use alternatives, so it's somehow understandable.

You are looking down on over a billion smartphone users. That's not a very nice thing to say.

 

[Ron Texas]

If you don't like a repair, warranty, or spare parts policy, don't buy the product.

See my post about Nikon in the USA above. They changed the rules as they went along.

 

[SIY]

See my post about Nikon in the USA above. They changed the rules as they went along.

That's certainly a risk when you buy a product, and for the manufacturer, it's a risk that can impact future sales. If they represented that spare parts would be available for XX years after purchase, that's a civil suit for breach of contract.

 

[Trell]

I think you are illustrating the Nirvana fallacy in regard to modern computer OS. I agree with the repairability issue with modern OS's, but the idea I need to learn enough to work around all that or consider myself a hypocrit is a bit tooooo precious!

He reminds me of those Linux zealots preaching of the sins of anyone daring to use something like "Windoze". I found that quite tiresome many years ago, and still do. For several years I used SUSE as my main desktop OS when you could buy SUSE with hard copy manuals, and later moved onto OpenBSD and FreeBSD. For some years now I do use Windows at home as there are some applications I need as well as gaming now and then.

 

[markanini]

The elephant in the room is the lawmakers that make these things possible. People don't want to be political about the issue but that aspect is totally inseparable.

 

[Trell]

Something isn't wrong just because it doesn't match a perfect, idealized and unrealistic goal. A cellphone is bad from a hardware/software repairability point of view, but it's better than literal Orwellian devices with often old vulnerable Linux versions left-to-die-without-updates while connecting to the Internet with massive security holes known as modern web browsers.

My words were "it's hypocritical to care about hardware but completely ignore software on that matter". I clearly care, even if I don't have a choice on the cell phone matter; it's simply expected of me for professional reasons, like a lot of people.

Well, certainly, but caring isn't the same as being able to do it yourself. How many people here care about this thread's topic and can't do these repairs themselves? I do raise my hand.

Now you are deflecting from your original comment that users of Windows/MacOS that care about repairability are hypocrites.

 

[Blumlein 88]

See my post about Nikon in the USA above. They changed the rules as they went along.

They did worse on their sport optics (riflescopes, binoculars, range finders). They retro-actively changed a No Fault lifetime warranty to any owners, to a limited one only for those who can show they purchased from an official dealer. Of course that was all a pre-cursor to exiting the sport optics business altogether year and a half later.

 

[Ron Texas]

They did worse on their sport optics (riflescopes, binoculars, range finders). They retro-actively changed a No Fault lifetime warranty to any owners, to a limited one only for those who can show they purchased from an official dealer. Of course that was all a pre-cursor to exiting the sport optics business altogether year and a half later.

Nikon is pretty nasty about proving the source of your photo gear was a US based dealer who imported through Nikon USA. I have a grey market zoom which I had to send to an independent. For another $200 I should have bought a refurbished unit from Nikon.