Stereophiles editor Jim Austin publicly disagreeing with Kal Rubinson

[DavidEdwinAston]

LOL, NOW who's the robot?

Apparently, we have both given money to Amirs laudable cause.
Is there some reason why you doubt and argue against that cause?

 

[preload]

Apparently, we have both given money to Amirs laudable cause.
Is there some reason why you doubt and argue against that cause?

Pray tell, what "cause" are you referring to?

I donated simply to help support the independent nature of the site so that it can continue to operate without the financial influence of manufacturers or advertisers. I saw what happened to head-fi after it got monetized, and I didn't like it. I also like what Amir is doing and I like the way he reviews products (with measurements and for speakers, with his subjective listening impressions). I don't remember donating for the purposes of helping to destroy other sites or magazines that don't subscribe to the same science-oriented focus.

 

[Galliardist]

Nah... they taste like tasty wheat.

On this rabbit tangent, maybe cable companies can start testing their cables by seeing if rabbits can chew through them and if they find them tasty. Then they can claim they have been real world tested, rank them by chew time and taste appeal. To further claim listening impressions, "the cables that tasted better sounded better" and "the cables that were harder to chew through lifted veils" etc. etc.


JSmith

A new listening companion

I have a confession, one I'm hesitant to make for reasons that will soon become clear, but my conscience compels me to make it. I have a new dog. A puppy. Her name is Ella Wren. Yes, "Ella" honors Fitzgerald, who started her career singing on the streets in Harlem, not many blocks from here...

www.stereophile.com

It appears that the Editor is a dog person, and his new friend has good taste, only chewing a couple of Apple cables and an annual award issue of Stereophile, so I doubt we'll get much on the taste of speaker cables from there.
I just had to note this article here though, as Mr Austin uses only the very best for his dog - both science and measurements!

 

[trackrat888]

A new listening companion

I have a confession, one I'm hesitant to make for reasons that will soon become clear, but my conscience compels me to make it. I have a new dog. A puppy. Her name is Ella Wren. Yes, "Ella" honors Fitzgerald, who started her career singing on the streets in Harlem, not many blocks from here...

www.stereophile.com

It appears that the Editor is a dog person, and his new friend has good taste, only chewing a couple of Apple cables and an annual award issue of Stereophile, so I doubt we'll get much on the taste of speaker cables from there.
I just had to note this article here though, as Mr Austin uses only the very best for his dog - both science and measurements!

Ah, not to generalize but every brindle dog I've ever met has been bat$ crazy. She does look like a cutie tho

 

[Ken1951]

Ah, not to generalize but every brindle dog I've ever met has been bat$ crazy. She does look like a cutie tho

Our two late rescue Greyhounds were both brindles. Both were as sweet as the day is long.

 

[Galliardist]

Pray tell, what "cause" are you referring to?

I donated simply to help support the independent nature of the site so that it can continue to operate without the financial influence of manufacturers or advertisers. I saw what happened to head-fi after it got monetized, and I didn't like it. I also like what Amir is doing and I like the way he reviews products (with measurements and for speakers, with his subjective listening impressions). I don't remember donating for the purposes of helping to destroy other sites or magazines that don't subscribe to the same science-oriented focus.

I think with some of the magazines, it's more a matter of concern.
We do, I hope, remember that Stereophile and HiFi News are both long standing magazines and the two longest running sources of measurement in reviews, at least in the English language. The people measuring devices there have the longest record of work in the area and are valuable. I hope that ASR's mission is not to destroy them, that would be pure stupidity.

In fact I don't want to "destroy" any part of the industry. I just happen to believe that those businesses selling outlandish claims should also bring forward evidence to support their claims. Pseudoscience I believe to be fair game. I'd prefer if the likes of Stereophile would measure as part of reviews beyond major components - measuring cables under review would be an honest thing to do.

So it's an obvious thing to note when both journals are now under the same ownership and a recently appointed editor has the view that the important evidence in the field is "anecdotal" (his word).

We have to wonder what the future is for measurements as part of reviews for both publications in these circumstances, and this thread is legitimate for that reason.

 

[posvibes]

"Why does it matter to you if people want to spend their money on things they think will make their system sound better but actually don't? "

I would venture to say it impacts us all in the end as it is an incentive for either the main manufacturers or the peripheral businesses that hawk the "snake oil" products to pursue those kinds of easy pickings . Why produce an affordable speaker or amplifier that measures well when you can sell a cable or a cable lifter, or a poor measuring device at a hefty price and good profit?

For me technology automatically implies "scientific" method. I don't get too twisted about it all and I suspect the reasons behind it all are incredibly complex, multifaceted and worthy of a conference or two and prove to be an interesting artifact in the future when sorting through the entrails of written records from forums such as this for our robotic ascendants.

Someone told me the other day that scientists predict that cities around the world will be filled with the same birds eventually, because of the growing noise, only those birds that have the capability and adaptability to up the volume of their bird song will prevail to attract mates and breed, the rest will perish.

 

[preload]

"Why does it matter to you if people want to spend their money on things they think will make their system sound better but actually don't? "

I would venture to say it impacts us all in the end as it is an incentive for either the main manufacturers or the peripheral businesses that hawk the "snake oil" products to pursue those kinds of easy pickings . Why produce an affordable speaker or amplifier that measures well when you can sell a cable or a cable lifter, or a poor measuring device at a hefty price and good profit?

I would agree with you that this might make sense in theory.
However, as a science-oriented group, we're very lucky in that we can already observe the effect of the snake oil business over the past several decades. Now it might just be me, but I simply have not seen any such movement of mainstream manufacturers abandoning their high performance products in order to produce snake oil tweaks. If this were a real risk, we would surely have seen it by now.

Now to be fair, Benchmark, McIntosh, Emotiva, and Krell have each come out with their own branded speaker cables, perhaps to capture some of the market, but have you seen any of these companies abandoning their core products because their cable sales have taken off? I'm willing to guess that many folks weren't even aware that any of these 4 well-known manufacturers even offer a speaker cable product.

And like many things, it's probably not even that simple. We all know that the profit margin on speakers, amplifiers, etc. are pretty slim. For a local hifi shop to stay in business, and entertain the tire kickers visiting their shop and maintain a showroom and inventory, how many $1,000 bookshelf speakers do you suppose they need to sell each day? Quit a few. This is where the high profit margin "accessories" come in. If you can sell some big markup interconnects with each amp or some fancy speaker cable with those bookshelves, AND your customer wants those accessories anyway, why not do the upsell?

Nowdays, with online competition and big box stores carrying major brands like Genelec, Kef, Focal, and B&W, etc., it's hard for local hifi stores to keep the lights on. In my area, I've seen them all go belly up, one by one. And I see that as a negative. If there are some high rollers that want to buy some fat cables and a 24k gold line conditioner, and that keeps the remaining stores afloat, that's just fine by me.

 

[garyrc]

Jack L like many want to assume their experience is correct and disagreements or especially someone who interprets their experience from different principles is wrong. It is a philosophical thicket from which you can never escape with that attitude. Even Stereophile's founder John Gordon Holt in time came to realize this and said the rejection of honesty controls doomed that approach.

How to deal with the thicket @Blumlein 88 mentions: 1) Don't have that attitude ("my listening experience must be correct"-- difficult to change), or, instead, 2) Manipulate any variables (e.g., placement, upstream components, and, yes, even tone controls) that might have an effect, whether they "should" or not, or, the easy way, 3) When in danger of becoming overcome by the thicket and its thorns, pass your hand down in front of your eyes in a chopping motion, and say "Foof!" Be sure to gesture broadly, and say "Foof!" loudly, especially if talking with other audiophiles, although I have found this effective in dealing with Big Box employees, as well.

Science is involved in all enjoyment, musical and otherwise. Whether based in FR, biochemical reactions of endorphins in the brain, THC content of gummy bears or the "nature" of bias. We don't smile, without measurable science somewhere in the chain of events... IMHO.

Agreed. And there are plenty of scientists who have looked at what may be involved in reactions to the elements of art, music, film cinema, etc,
I'm fascinated by Berlyne's little book Aesthetics and Psychobiology, but there are many others.

 

[preload]

I think with some of the magazines, it's more a matter of concern.
We do, I hope, remember that Stereophile and HiFi News are both long standing magazines and the two longest running sources of measurement in reviews, at least in the English language. The people measuring devices there have the longest record of work in the area and are valuable. I hope that ASR's mission is not to destroy them, that would be pure stupidity.

In fact I don't want to "destroy" any part of the industry.

I'm with you on this. I happen to like reading Stereophile, I find it entertaining, and I also agree that it's a good source of measurements.
At the same time, I also really liked reading Stereo Review, Audio magazine, and The Audio Critic. (BTW, Audio Magazine was older than Stereophile). And as we all know, none of these 3 publications are still in business. Perhaps not coincidentally, each of these 3 magazines also endorsed very objectivist viewpoints and/or published blind listening tests that revealed no audible differences between cables, amplifiers, and other equipment.
So, I think we should be careful what we wish for. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

We have to wonder what the future is for measurements as part of reviews for both publications in these circumstances, and this thread is legitimate for that reason.

My guess is that Stereophile will continue to provide measurements, regardless. Part of the reason I think that is that the existence of measurements in a product review adds a perception of legitimacy and credibility to the article. (It's well known that citing numbers, even if incorrect, makes a person sound more credible.) So, it would be silly for Stereophile to stop including measurements, unless, say, they became prohibitively expensive to obtain.

 

[posvibes]

It is generally my view with respect to the columnists of trade magazines their articles and reviews provide content a little like the TV programs on free to air channels namely the filler between the adverts.

There is nothing wrong with that, the hi-fi industry is a commercial undertaking. The technical content in a magazine like Stereophile although provided with good intentions probably has muddied the waters and to mix a metaphor produces a product that is neither fish nor fowl.

ASR is to my mind a player in the market with some co-operation of some of the industry suppliers such as Denon? ASR obviously doesn't have the same overheads as the magazine, is financially independent and staffed by dedicated volunteers and has a wide, diverse and in many cases expert readership and a reputation like a belling cat of the hi-fi industry, and reflects a low level consumer advocacy type of capability to boot.

There are many things in play for all types of industry and the lessons of the tobacco industry come to mind but in a really marginal niche way, although the value of the international headphone market if I understand it correctly is not insignificant.

 

[Descartes]

Like Mitchco at Audiophile Style, Kal is the one voice at Stereophile respected by the objectivist, evidence based audiophile community.

Maybe because in his spare time he is a physician who believes in scientific evidence and is use to double blind placebo controlled trials rather than anecdotal reports!

 

[posvibes]

This is where the high profit margin "accessories" come in. If you can sell some big markup interconnects with each amp or some fancy speaker cable with those bookshelves, AND your customer wants those accessories anyway, why not do the upsell?

It'll be interesting as to how they market those accessories if they go the magic fairy dust narrative that would ironically undermine their reputations as being engineering companies, confusing the market by saying we make great amplifiers worth every cent but we couldn't get it quite right but with our cable etc etc. It'll be the burden of a cross of their own making.

 

[Mart68]

It'll be interesting as to how they market those accessories if they go the magic fairy dust narrative that would ironically undermine their reputations as being engineering companies, confusing the market by saying we make great amplifiers worth every cent but we couldn't get it quite right but with our cable etc etc. It'll be the burden of a cross of their own making.

I'm reminded of Naim who for years took the stance that power cables made no difference, until they realised there was easy money to be made.

Here you go at £695 a pop https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/naim-power-line-mains-cable-2m

Decades on they are still in business and making a healthy profit.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Maybe because in his spare time he is a physician who believes in scientific evidence and is use to double blind placebo controlled trials rather than anecdotal reports!

Thanks but, in fact, I am a retired research scientist and educator "who believes in scientific evidence and is used to double blind placebo controlled trials rather than anecdotal reports!"

 

[preload]

I'm reminded of Naim who for years took the stance that power cables made no difference, until they realised there was easy money to be made.

Here you go at £695 a pop https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/naim-power-line-mains-cable-2m

Decades on they are still in business and making a healthy profit.

I didn't see (in the link provided) where Naim made a claim that their power cable would make an audible difference. It simply described how it was constructed. I honestly don't see a problem with it.

Similarly, as mentioned, Benchmark also sells a speaker cable for $200/pr. It doesn't make me think any less of the company.

 

[Mart68]

I didn't see (in the link provided) where Naim made a claim that their power cable would make an audible difference. It simply described how it was constructed. I honestly don't see a problem with it.

Similarly, as mentioned, Benchmark also sells a speaker cable for $200/pr. It doesn't make me think any less of the company.

That was a reply to someone suggesting that amplifier companies might damage their reputation and therefore their business by getting into the cable market.

That didn't happen at Naim.

I don't have a problem with people selling expensive cables either. I believe responsibility should lie with the buyer to educate himself.

 

[ahofer]

That was a reply to someone suggesting that amplifier companies might damage their reputation and therefore their business by getting into the cable market.

That didn't happen at Naim.

I don't have a problem with people selling expensive cables either. I believe responsibility should lie with the buyer to educate himself.

Don‘t the Naim components have weird/flawed/non-traditional output/input specs?

Speaker Cable for Naim power amplifiers

Naim power amplifiers do not have extra inductance networks in the output. Naim prefer the more elegant solution of allowing the speaker cable to provide the correct inductance and capacitance. To do so, a minimum of 3.5 metres per channel of NACA4 or NACA5 cable is required – although the...

community.naimaudio.com

Naim sound

A few Naimees or ex-Naim owners here. What do you all make of their CD players? They come in for high praise by the breadth of the hifi community. Good performance, improving sonics up the range, quality components and good service (though some have been retired due to lack of optical drives in...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Trell]

That was a reply to someone suggesting that amplifier companies might damage their reputation and therefore their business by getting into the cable market.

That didn't happen at Naim.

I don't have a problem with people selling expensive cables either. I believe responsibility should lie with the buyer to educate himself.

So what responsibilities does the seller have, if any, in your view?

 

[Mart68]

Don‘t the Naim components have weird/flawed/non-traditional output/input specs?

Speaker Cable for Naim power amplifiers

Naim power amplifiers do not have extra inductance networks in the output. Naim prefer the more elegant solution of allowing the speaker cable to provide the correct inductance and capacitance. To do so, a minimum of 3.5 metres per channel of NACA4 or NACA5 cable is required – although the...

community.naimaudio.com

Naim sound

A few Naimees or ex-Naim owners here. What do you all make of their CD players? They come in for high praise by the breadth of the hifi community. Good performance, improving sonics up the range, quality components and good service (though some have been retired due to lack of optical drives in...

audiosciencereview.com

I don't think that has been the case for many years npw.