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Stereo vs Dual channel vs Dual mono vs Monoblock

Sam Lord

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Biamping is only usefull when the filter is before the amps, so the amps are direct coupled to the speaker drivers (no filters or only a security cap on the tweeter). Otherwise it's a wast of amp power. It's promoted (biamping on speakers with passive crossovers) by many in the audiophool world altough, but mainly because they can sell more amps that way.

And a well engineered stereo amp with one psu is normally as good as a dual mono like you describe. But then the psu must be more powerfull than what the amp needs and the engineering needs to be right done to eliminate crosstalk, what is often an issue with stereo amps. The builders wants to reduce the costs and so cuts corners to get there, with as result crosstalk that is to high or even worse, sagging of the amp because the psu can't deliver the juice needed. With a dual mono (or monoblocks) you're more sure to avoid those issues, but it's not the only way, and no guarantee to success neighter (even a monoblock can sag).
Biamping is certainly useful with speaker-level crossovers, it does not waste any more power than single-channel-per-side does. Of course, as you say, line-level crossovers are better, with good parts, But good active crossovers are unfortunately rare, expensive, and hard to implement. That said, vertical biamping is often a _better_ use of amp power than a typical single-stereo-amp setup. The reason is that each amp's PS feeds a high-current (low frequency) driver(s) and one or more midrange and HF drivers. So the total load on each amp is the same as for each channel of a shared stereo amp. Most amps are limited by either the voltage or current of their power supplies, not by their output devices. All of the power of each amp can be used, except for the midrange and tweeter pads which don't dissipate gobs of power anyway, with most music.

Most stereo power amps are definitely not as good as dual mono amps of the same rated output: The combined PS in a dual mono amp typically has more capacitance, providing more instantaneous power to each channel. And crosstalk is drastically lower: 20-30dB is common.

So the two main benefits of vertical biamping are 1) much lower crosstalk, which improves imaging; and even more importantly 2) separation of channels between the drivers _greatly_ lowers distortion for the mid and HF drivers that otherwise suffer from the back-emf of the woofers.
 
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Waxx

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Sorry, but you're talking bullshit here. If you want to back up your nonsens you will have to come with scientific proof (aka measurments of the better). But i had this discussion many times before, and nobody could proof my wrong when i said biamping with pasive crossovers is useless and a wast of amp power.
 

Sam Lord

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Sorry, but you're talking bullshit here. If you want to back up your nonsens you will have to come with scientific proof (aka measurments of the better). But i had this discussion many times before, and nobody could proof my wrong when i said biamping with pasive crossovers is useless and a wast of amp power.
Your abusive language is unwelcome. I'll address the dual-mono question now. I understand electronic circuits very well, while you appear to lack that understanding. I won't argue with what people perceive about measurements, Since you are unfamiliar with amplifier behavior, I'll provide examples. The causes of crosstalk are several, and the elimination of those causes reduces crosstalk. [Edit: by "secondary pair" I mean the two ends of a single secondary winding.] Using separate rectifier banks reduces coupling between channels. Using separate transformer windings for each of two channels costs more but reduces coupling between the channels. Using separate transformers reduces it further. In place of those measures, increasing supply capacitance reduces crosstalk, but the relative cost is higher.

What sort of new measurements do you need?? These are fundamentals of amplifier design. Crosstalk measurements by 3rd parties and manufacturers are everywhere. Shall we look at various examples? Let's start with manufacturers with long presence and repute in home and studio. Bryston is certainly in that camp. All of Bryston's current stereo amps don't even list crosstalk now. Why not? _Two_ transformers! Their crosstalk will be close to their sinad, so no need.

What about cheaper but solid stereo amps? Take the $800 Schiit Vidar. It uses the method my company used and many other high-end amps builders use: separate secondaries per channel. Crosstalk is below -90dB even at 20kHz. That's a _very_ good number, which is almost unattainable with a single pair of secondaries. Do you get better imaging with lower crosstalk, like -90dB vs -70dB at 20khz? I think so, but you are free to disagree about that. How about an amp known for meeting extremely high specifications? The Benchmark AHB2 has a sinad around 130dB. It's full-range crosstalk? -92dB. Now, I can _promise_ you that they use two secondary pairs per channel.

Now let's look at crosstalk of typical but well-regarded stereo amps, where secondaries are shared between the channels. Older Hafler amps like the DH500 had typical THD measurements at 1kHz around 116dB and noise around 110dB, so let's call SINAD 109dB. But crosstalk hit -60dB at 20kHz, dropping to -66dB below 1kHz. Why so much crosstalk relative to THD? Both the seconday pair and the bridge rectifier were shared between channels.

Now I have said nothing extraordinary about these circuits. They perform as simulations predict. If you have any evidence, let alone theory, to contradict these examples, I am all ears.

On the matter of wasted money with biamping into passive crossovers, the answer depends on how the owner values what he or she hears. But the power and distortion results are not in dispute, they have been measured here, there, everywhere. I place a lot of inportance on stereo separation. As a likely purchaser of preamps and DACs, which have vastly lower crosstalk, I expect you do as well. I didn't come here to _disprove_ your version of wasted money on these competing setups of amplifiers, I simply stated _why_ the route I suggest makes sense. If you believe my numbers or relative values are wrong, please tell me which ones and why. I promise to give you my honest opinion, which is shared by many top designers whom I have the honor of knowing.
 
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Waxx

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I still see no hard evidence, just some more bla bla. If you want to make a point here you need scientific proof down here as this is Audio Science Review.
 

Killingbeans

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What sort of new measurements do you need??

I'd love some research that shows how crosstalk below -60dB "improves imaging". Unless you're using a stupidly effective acoustic crosstalk cancellation scheme in your speaker setup, there's not a snowball's chance in hell for you to detect the amp's contibution.

Some actual data showing the "_greatly_ lowered distortion for the mid and HF drivers" would also be nice.
 

JiiPee

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There is quite obvious and grievous problem that the audio industry has overlooked. Having just physically separated power amplifiers for each channel is of course not enough!

Both channels of stereo recording must be handled with separate hardware throughout the reproduction chain: Each channel must be stored on separate media, retrieved by separate servers, sent via separate networks, streamed by separate steamers, converted by separate D/A-converters, amplified by separate amplifiers (naturally both for pre- and power amplification) and then fed to separate speakers.

How on earth can they have missed this fundamental truth?
 

lisgotan

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I have a good grasp on stereo and monoblocks but is there a difference between dual channel and dual mono? Or are the same thing with different names?

Sounds like dual mono is two monoblocks under the same hood but sharing the same wall socket i.e. one power cord.

Is eliminating crosstalk a strong enough argument for monoblocks? Or just a minor step in search of the ideal amplifier/output.

Having punted the purchase of PS Audio M1200s it appears that even the stereo units from names like Hypex and Nord out perform the M1200 monoblocks for less money.

I just need a solid understanding of dual channel and dual mono design if different and benefits as well as disadvantages in order to intelligently navigate those sites and ask detailed questions.

A Hypex NC1200 is described as Monoblock yet has left and right inputs as well as left and right outputs. ???

I searched for a discussion on dual channel vs dual mono but came up dry. Perhaps they are one in the same.

I personally don't think crosstalk is a big issue even with stereo poweramps. I beleive main reason is power (for those who needs lots of power).

For stereo amps, they mostly share a single transformer. Some may share a single set of power reservoir caps while some could be separate. One main limitation of stereo amp is power. I can safely say that many amps listed their power only when 1 channel is driven instead of both simultaneously.

2 channel is same as a stereo power map. There are 3,5,7 channel power amps as well. Its meant for those who uses separate AV processors and power amp combo.

Dual monos are essentially 2 monoblocks in 1 chassis sharing the same power cord. The limitation is mainly space within a single chassis and location of the amp (you can't place the amp close to speaker).

For monoblocks, you can choose to place each of them where you like. You can use power from different sources (assuming it could trip a single socket). But we are talking about very extreme cases here.
 
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