Speakers for low wattage amp tube

[MAB]

I fully take your point, which is a good one. However, it needs to be kept in mind that there is likely to be a very significant amplifier–loudspeaker interaction process going on with the selected amplifier, let alone the loudspeaker–room interaction one. The latter is enough to make a suggestion for any particular loudspeaker fraught with difficulty. Add the former into the mix and the result is a quite foggy situation. The various posts have tried to reflect on this situation in order to aid the OP in his quest for good sound.

Agreed.
Another point that that is missed in the enthusiasm to pair tubes and horns is nobody seems to be able to make a tube amp with a low noise floor anymore, this amp is no different. OP, read John Atkinson's measurements, specifically the power supply noise. High efficiency + noise = bad sound.

Back to OP's original question.
OP ordered a $4800 amp and has a $200 and a $600 speaker that they are considering with max budget of $2000. OP said they like the sound of dome some Tannoy speakers. Some high-efficiency speaker suggestions followed given the low power of the amp, some as high as $12000. While I am not familiar with many, I bet at least a few are glorious. Does OP really want to spend $4800 out of a max budget of $6800 on an amp, especially with power supply noise? OP likes the Tannoy sound and should go and buy a pair of speakers with that sound, and find a low-noise amp for $200 to $600!
And, since the amp is 'ordered', I suggest that the amp be returned, starting over with the speakers that have the sound the OP wants.
Sorry if I sound aggressive! I do want OP to get a nice pair of speakers, the amp got in the way.

 

[witwald]

I understand the frenzy of suggestions, the passion of absolute high fidelity and the desire to share what we believe is best for us.
...He just asked for some speaker advice.

That may be true, but when the amplifier that is in use modifies the frequency response of the typical loudspeaker connected to it, then any "speaker advice" really needs to be "amplifier+speaker" advice, as one is inextricably linked to the other. It was not apparent if the OP had an understanding of that conundrum. In any case, the definition of what constituted "good sound" to the OP was open to conjecture, and resulted in a lot of different responses.

We must accept that someone can simply fascinate and enjoy having a nice piece of tube amplifier, which lights up in the dim light and which gives that magic and that pleasure that we should remember is the first goal of a hobby.

Agreed and appreciated. But the responders were generally trying to address the OP's request to obtain an amplifier and speaker system that had "good sound".

Can you buy a purifi module and simulate the FR and distortions of a tube? Ok, fine, but it's not the same for an enthusiast. What's wrong with that?

The answer is, of course, absolutely nothing. However, if the aim is to get "good sound", then it is probably useful to have an understanding of some of the limitations and ramifications of any particular solution. It's relatively easy to spend a lot of money and still end up quite dissatisfied with the lack of good sound from one's sound system. The many responses offered by various people were intended to be helpful, pointing out various issues along the way.

 

[tomelex]

If one likes to use vintage-style electronics, while wanting to achieve a good sound, then this can be a very limiting situation to be in. From the short list of speakers that was provided above (how many more after the etc.?), and the "several amps" that were also referred to, there seems to be an audiophile quest of sorts going on. In any case, tube amplifiers have a bit of a reputation for adding euphonic colorations, making the listener think that they sound "better", when in fact they are worse because they have added something that isn't there in the first place.

Objectively speaking, the search for "good sound" won't be helped by using a tube amplifier, which introduces its own vagaries into the listening equation, all of which serve to detract from a high-fidelity music reproduction experience. A tube amplifier will be imprinting its own sonic signature on what could be very good speakers. It is likely to cause a listener to prefer one speaker over another, based purely on the distorting effects of the amplifier itself, as the modifications to the loudspeaker's frequency response caused by variations in the loudspeaker's impedance are themselves distortion of a high degree.

It is helpful to recognize that a tube amplifier will never allow you to hear the true as-designed characteristics of a loudspeaker (with a varying impedance) connected to it (albeit those will be unavoidably modified by the acoustics of the listening room). Once a modern solid state amplifier is selected, its performance will be loudspeaker independent. It is then possible to go about partnering that amplifier with a loudspeaker of your choice, without having to worry about the potential synergistic and/or detrimental amplifier–loudspeaker interactions.

While technically everything you say above I agree with, some folks like the harmonic splash and dynamic splash tube amps provide. Saying that, yes, indeed, choosing a speaker is that much more difficult unless you can audition several of them. Speaker specs can be helpful though to those who know what they mean and the interactions with the tube unit.

One thing though, our friend can one day economically add a solid state amplifier relatively inexpensively, for when he wants to hear a bit more transparency (real detail as opposed to dynamic and harmonic splash drama) to the music. I myself, use this process, with headphones, and with speakers, it really depends on my mood. Sometimes you feel like a tube, sometimes you don't: ahahahah

 

[lateralous]

Meanwhile, somebody really needs to program up a DSP tube-amp emulator.

Is there truly not such a thing available, or better yet, available and proven to be similar enough where one could fail an A/B comparison with the tube amp it was designed to emulate whilst being driven by a transparent amp? I believe no fairy tales about their capabilities, but out of sheer curiosity and a tinkering nature I'd certainly like to attempt at injecting some magic myself

 

[cavedriver]

Is there truly not such a thing available, or better yet, available and proven to be similar enough where one could fail an A/B comparison with the tube amp it was designed to emulate whilst being driven by a transparent amp? I believe no fairy tales about their capabilities, but out of sheer curiosity and a tinkering nature I'd certainly like to attempt at injecting some magic myself

hehe, everything that was old is eventually new again. One of my roommates in college had a Carver amp that was marketed as being a solid state amp that had been designed to emulate a tube amp (actually, a specific tube amp- read on for details). I didn't know what a tube amp sounded like at the time and have only a vague memory of his system, but I suspect based on the linked article his system did not do a good job of sounding like a tube amped system. The more fascinating part of the story is this "legendary" Carver challenge where he was able to build a one-off amp that matched the sound of a big-budget hifi amp so closely that in blind testing the staff of Stereophile couldn't tell the two apart. The amps also supposedly measured so closely that the results of the test were not surprising. Follow the link within the article to get to the story of the "challenge":

Carver Silver Seven-t monoblock power amplifier

In 1988, Bob Carver set out to design the best amplifier he possibly could, without regard for cost. It was more of an ego exercise than an attempt to build a product with wide commercial appeal. The result was the four-chassis, $17,500 Silver Seven.

www.stereophile.com

 

[MAB]

Is there truly not such a thing available, or better yet, available and proven to be similar enough where one could fail an A/B comparison with the tube amp it was designed to emulate whilst being driven by a transparent amp? I believe no fairy tales about their capabilities, but out of sheer curiosity and a tinkering nature I'd certainly like to attempt at injecting some magic myself

Many have.
Bob Carver for instance. Yamaha. Tom Scholz. Lots of others.
And, if you want to add distortion to a transparent signal, I recommend DISTORT from @pkane. See how each harmonic distortion component sounds, at what threshold, etc.
Regarding the A/B sound between different amplifiers... among properly working amps, it is nearly impossible to determine differences. For instance, a test of amps from the legendary Futterman to a Pioneer receiver (page 78):

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Audio/Archive-HiFI-Stereo/80s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1987-01.pdf

They are indistinguishable in this test, which is one among many that shows a properly working tube amp has no special qualities. The tube amp sound, at it's best when compared to a properly working Pioneer receiver is no sound at all, just amplification. Most modern tube amp so often seem to have taken a step backwards, especially for unforgivable things like mains noise, which is actually going to be audible on one of these high resolution horn systems. It's so ironic.
So if you really like 2nd order harmonics, or any order for that matter, get one of the many DSP plugins available and test it out. Find that hazy bar setting, or the grand concert hall setting. If the rest of your chain is noise and distortion free you have the flexibility to add whatever you prefer.

 

[DanielT]

The Leben CS-300X(S) is very low powered by modern standards. I'd recommend at least 50W into 8 ohms as a bare minimum, and 100W would be vastly to be preferred.

The Leben CS-300X(S) has distortion levels that are somewhat on the high side: 0.7% at 10W. In comparison, solid state amplifiers will usually do better than 0.05% distortion, and will usually have significantly lower noise floors as well.


You mention that the load impedance of the loudspeakers that you would consider is an important factor. Are you aware that the Leben CS-300X(S) has a very high output impedance? As a result, it will interact quite considerably with the frequency varying load impedance of typical loudspeakers. The frequency response of the amplifier will be affected.

In their review of the Leben CS-300 integrated amplifier, Stereophile note that the "[output] impedance is sufficiently high to give rise to potentially audible ±1.1dB response variations with a typical loudspeaker, even from the 4 ohm tap".

Take a look at the frequency response of Leben CS-300. As you can see, the Leben is acting a bit like a graphic equalizer with the simulated loudspeaker load. Its equalization will of course vary depending on the loudspeaker that is connected to it. That's not a particularly good characteristic to have in an amplifier, and it means it really can't aspire to meet modern standards of high fidelity.

Saying that an amplifier's philosophy is such that it plays music well, is bypassing the fact that the amplifier should not have a sound of its own. If it does, it's demonstrably failed in its primary purpose: to amplify the input signal without change.


If you are looking for a better high-fidelity sound reproduction experience, then it would be strongly worth considering a solid state integrated amplifier. Most would easily outperform the Leben CS-300X(S). Integrated amplifiers like the Yamaha A-S701 and Rotel RA-1572 MkII are potential options that come to mind. There are many others as well, to suit a wide range of budgets and aesthetic tastes.

Once you get a reasonably powerful solid state amplifier (e.g., 100W RMS into 8 ohms), with a reasonably high damping factor (e.g., >200), then your choice of loudspeakers will be ever so much greater.

Well pointed out, provided you want the type of amplification you describe.

If, on the other hand, you want a sound colored by the amplifier (added distortion, deviations from FR), well then it will be difficult to recommend speakers. We do not know how much color is desired. The worse the match between speakers and amplifiers might then be a "better" match for those looking for the "tube sound".

I'm not interested in any "tube sound" but maybe Kartingboy is?

Agreed.
Another point that that is missed in the enthusiasm to pair tubes and horns is nobody seems to be able to make a tube amp with a low noise floor anymore, this amp is no different. OP, read John Atkinson's measurements, specifically the power supply noise. High efficiency + noise = bad sound.

Back to OP's original question.
OP ordered a $4800 amp and has a $200 and a $600 speaker that they are considering with max budget of $2000. OP said they like the sound of dome some Tannoy speakers. Some high-efficiency speaker suggestions followed given the low power of the amp, some as high as $12000. While I am not familiar with many, I bet at least a few are glorious. Does OP really want to spend $4800 out of a max budget of $6800 on an amp, especially with power supply noise? OP likes the Tannoy sound and should go and buy a pair of speakers with that sound, and find a low-noise amp for $200 to $600!
And, since the amp is 'ordered', I suggest that the amp be returned, starting over with the speakers that have the sound the OP wants.
Sorry if I sound aggressive! I do want OP to get a nice pair of speakers, the amp got in the way.

With a wallet filled with $6800, one can buy very good HiFi stuff. I say spend the absolute majority of the money on the speakers (or speakers plus subwoofer). Of $6800, around 90% of that I would have spent on speakers. Alternatively, I would have bought a ready-made package, i.e. active speakers.

 

[cavedriver]

The only speaker I have to add to this thread is unfortunately out of the OP's price range but at least Italian in origin. I'm referring to a DolceVita "Sogna" speaker, which apparently sell for $12k a pair. Dolce Vita appears to be an extremely small Italian speaker company that specializes in 1.5-way high-efficiency speakers. I could not find a website for them. I heard their speakers at the Capital Audiofest for a couple minutes. They sounded kind of sweet but have a very unusual niche design. Yes, those are wooden baffles on the front of the speaker to "widen the soundstage":

and here's a thorough review in Italian of one of their other designs:

DolceVita Sogno 2 "Limited Edition"

 

[Kartingboy]

Good morning
it's 7.30 in Italy!
well, i have read all your posts and i undestood 2 major things :

1 - You don't like tubes amps!
2 - You don't love vintage audio electronics!


Kidding apart, thanks for the advices.

Mainly I don't look for a cutting edge sound or a hi-fi monster system.
I just want a good tube set up with the most balanced speakers matching possible.
I would like to play music, not details.
In the next times, according to your infos, i will look for new speakers to test. With no rush, in the used market, is possible to find good occasions.

I had a McIntosh MA6500 and a MA6600, i loved much more the first than the second. This is to tell you that my priority is musicality.
And, as i posted before, i own a Sansui AU7900 that is the best sounding amp i ever had. For my musical tastes obviously. I also had au 555 and au 777, they both with a beautiful sound in my opinion.

Very interesting the Fostex DIY kit. I never heard anything about it, if you have more info tell me please.

 

[cavedriver]

I could add Zu Audio and Omega Loudspeakers, both of whom make high efficiency speakers for less than 5k, and with some models, less than 2k. I recently heard the Zu's "Dirty Weekend" speakers and although they didn't sound as bad as I expected my bar was very low based on reviews and their design. Honestly I'm in the camp that 80%+ of ones budget should go into the speakers unless you're rich.

Super Alnico High Output XRS

Price per Pair Omega Speaker Systems: Super Alnico High Output XRS The Omega Super Alnico High Output XRS stands as a benchmark in high-efficiency speaker design, enhancing the already celebrated Super Alnico Monitor by incorporating dual-driver technology for even greater dynamic performance...

omegaloudspeakers.com

Another adherent of ultra-low power SET amp listening is Coincident Speakers. He has no distribution to speak of but the speakers seem solidly designed and when I heard the Total Victories driven by his 300B tube amps some years ago they had all the magic that 300B's are known for but frankly weak bass performance as expected. I would have liked to hear them with other amps as well as seeing some measurements on them. They are also out of your price range:

Coincident Speaker Technology Loudspeaker Page

 

[Sokel]

I have "heard" your amp with big horns (I mean big) and it didn't sound much different than a 100 watt/8ohm solid state,Audio Research monos and some 6 watts SET monos side by side.
In fact it was closer to the solid state one than the SET who have that very precise recipe that some people like.

But I'm talking about 98db(?) speaker sensitivity.I do not recall any disturbing noise or humm with no music.
You really have to find something above 95db sensitivity and designed to be driven by tubes but unfortunately they don't come cheap and some of them are massive.
(same setup includes a brand new purifi too so I have heard it with all and you may be surprised but it's not THAT different and that includes my bias for the nicer looking ones)

 

[rbg]

I would suggest to register and ask this at the diyaudio form. Usually diy tube amps are in that 10-15w range so people may suggest what speakers to use with that type of equipment.

 

[voodooless]

OP, he is not a child to be taught to manage pocket money, he would seem to be an adult who buys what he likes with his earned money, and I repeat, he did not come here to tell us that it sounds better than a purifi, he just asked speaker advice.

Would you say the same if the OP just spend $€£ 4800 on an audiophile network switch and now comes here to ask for what network cable would be best to buy? Clearly the $€£ 4800 wasn’t just pocket money, since the bit get left for speakers is far less. You don’t need to be a child to make irrational decisions. Everybody does it.

And if you ask for advice on a forum, you’ll get it. Some of it, you may not like, but later be very thankful for… and otherwise, deal with it.

 

[Eurasian]

I think you should be happy with Tannoy DMTs — they should be within your budget

 

[DanielT]

I would suggest to register and ask this at the diyaudio form. Usually diy tube amps are in that 10-15w range so people may suggest what speakers to use with that type of equipment.

As for DIY, a dedicated DIY forum is definitely the way forward for tips, advice and suggestions.

But even here at ASR we have a fairly active DIY section:

DIY Audio Forum

Let us know what you have built yourself that is cool and fantastic.

audiosciencereview.com

Incidentally, if it is the first time you build something then try something cheap to see if you enjoy tinkering with DIY speakers.
(not addressed to you but to Kartingboy)

These drivers have relatively high sensitivity. 8 Ohm drivers. They should pair well even with a tube amp:

4FE32 (8Ω) by FaitalPRO

FaitalPRO combined the latest R&D methods and technologies with the most advanced industrial automation techniques and all FaitalPRO drivers are made in Italy with the highest level of quality, consistency and durability.

faitalpro.com

(also available in 16 Ohm)

Recognized good cheap tweeter:

https://www.parts-express.com/Peerless-BC25TG15-08-1-Fabric-Dome-Tweeter-8-Ohm-264-1442

(if it is still available in the 8 Ohm version?).

Plus a sensible bass driver in that solution. But just to test building something, start with that Faital Pro and that Peerless tweeter.

Okay, to get them together in a good way, you need to think about crossover, c-c distance, baffle size and design and so on.There is a relatively long checklist if you really want to create really good DIY speakers. Measuring equipment and calculation programs are also needed then but just to see if you think it's fun, you can test build something with them.

Edit:
Faital Pro 4FE32 has fairly high distortion (if measured correctly in the link below).Perhaps nothing that worries you if you are looking for high sensitivity? Just wanted to mention it. :

small midrange shootout: Faital Pro 4FE32 and ScanSpeak 10F4424G00 - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

Want a second or third opinion about your speaker cabinet design or other audio related problem? Post your question or comment on the Technical Discussion Board. Hundreds of technicians, engineers, and hobbyists, nationwide read and discuss electronics related questions each week. We welcome...

techtalk.parts-express.com

 

[Talisman]

Would you say the same if the OP just spend $€£ 4800 on an audiophile network switch and now comes here to ask for what network cable would be best to buy? Clearly the $€£ 4800 wasn’t just pocket money, since the bit get left for speakers is far less. You don’t need to be a child to make irrational decisions. Everybody does it.

And if you ask for advice on a forum, you’ll get it. Some of it, you may not like, but later be very thankful for… and otherwise, deal with it.

I would give a different example, Op asks for advice on tires to use with a 500,000 euro 1967 Shelby Cobra.
And on the forum they answer that it doesn't make sense, that he should give it back and that with 70,000 he can buy a 2023 Nissan Skyline that has infinitely superior performance at a fraction of the price. And it's true.
But our OP likes the Shelby Cobra.

 

[rolloj]

May I suggest you look at speakers made in Germany called ODEON.

Odeon Audio - Lautsprecher handgefertigt in Deutschland | handcrafted in germany

www.odeon-audio.com

I am dating myself, but almost twenty years ago they produced a bookshelf speaker that was quite at home with low powered amplifiers and their cost was reasonable.
There is another speaker company, closer to home.....made in Italy named SAP ....may not be in business anymore

Strumenti Acustic Di Precisione​

 

[voodooless]

Very interesting the Fostex DIY kit. I never heard anything about it, if you have more info tell me please.

Generally the Fostex full-range drivers are quite small, and sensitivity isn't that great either (~90 dB). You'll also need quite a bit of enclosure to get some bass out of it. The back loaded horn designs would be best for that (and they tend to look cool). A few of them can be found here: https://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/speaker_components/recommended_enclosures.shtml

Just note that these speakers aren't very flat or neutral, and since they are full range, will beam at high frequencies. That may just be what you are after though...

 

[Willem]

I think this thread is a sad example of how not to build an audio system within a given budget. The Leben is inadequate, over priced and nothing else. The remaining budget is too small for decent speakers. I also shows the wrong order to buy gear: start with the speakers, spend most of your budget on them, and then get the electronics that you need (and they can be cheap).
Of course, it is a free world, but ASR is about getting the objectively best sound for the money.

 

[MattHooper]

This is one of the things that you have said that confuses me. I think it confuses other people, too.

There is no such thing as a system that plays music, but not details. Nor, conversely, is there such a system that plays details but not music. The recording is what it is, warts and all. The amplifier SHOULD simply amplify the signal, making it possible to drive a loudspeaker. A good amplifier should not add anything that is not in the recording, and it should not subtract anything from the recording.

I think it’s only confusing if you approach his comment too literally. The language is imprecise but one can get the gist.

I take the OP to be simply indicating that he isn’t so concerned with ruthless fidelity, but is fine with a tube amp that sounds to his ear better with music and less artificial even if this comes at the expense of neutrality or precision rendering recorded details.

(Whether the tube amp does that or not: I believe that is likely what he’s trying to get across).