Speaker help!

[HidesAmpsFromWife]

Hi everyone. I’m in need of some help. I’m somewhat cursed with having a pair of speakers I love.

They’re Celestion Ditton 551, with Morel 448 tweeters. My issue is that they’re getting up there in years, and the midrange is a bit unforgiving and I’m hankering for something a bit smoother.

Enter a search for new speakers and yikes are they expensive. Would I be better off investing in rebuilding the crossovers / upgrading internal cabling etc.?

Preamp is a Sansui AU-555A, power amp is an XTZ Edge A2-300. Sources are a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon / Sumiko Olympia and a FiiO R7. Interconnects by Pro-Ject & Chord. Speaker cables are Tributaries 4SP-B. Subwoofer is a Yamaha NS-SW300.

What I love about the Dittons is the scale, excellent low volume listening, dynamic, bags of detail and good timing. Nice wide stage.

Taken from listening position:

 

[DonH56]

If you like them, try turning down the treble and/or midrange on your preamp just a little and see if the harshness goes away.

If you have a good LCR meter you can see if the crossover components have drifted out of spec.

 

[TimW]

Enter a search for new speakers and yikes are they expensive. Would I be better off investing in rebuilding the crossovers / upgrading internal cabling etc.?

What is your budget?

Upgrading internal cabling shouldn't make any audible difference. Rebuilding the crossover could if the old components have drifted out of spec, but even then I suspect the audible differences could be small if the speakers are operating properly.

I have rebuilt old Klipsch Forte speakers for a friends dad. He likes to listen loud and one night decided to listen far too loud which resulted in some damage. There was a blown electrolytic cap in one crossover, a shorted inductor that had melted in the other, and a fried tweeter voice coil in one of the speakers. They definitely did not sound right but the old man (as he's lovingly referred) just thought they sounded a little muffled and maybe his amplifier was the problem (it kept going into protection). I rebuilt the crossovers with larger gauge air core inductors that had the same resistance value as the original solid cores, new electrolytic caps, and new titanium tweeter diaphragms. You could say that the sound was improved when compared to their fully functional original state, but they still sound like old Klipsch speakers. The old man bought them new in the 80s and has always loved their sound so this was the best case scenario for him.

Personally I do like the look of old wood grain monkey coffin speakers but I prefer the performance of a modern design. That is why I currently have Wharfedale Lintons. If you are looking for a similar look and design to your current speakers but want something new, I can recommend those.

 

[HidesAmpsFromWife]

What is your budget?

Upgrading internal cabling shouldn't make any audible difference. Rebuilding the crossover could if the old components have drifted out of spec, but even then I suspect the audible differences could be small if the speakers are operating properly.

I have rebuilt old Klipsch Forte speakers for a friends dad. He likes to listen loud and one night decided to listen far too loud which resulted in some damage. There was a blown electrolytic cap in one crossover, a shorted inductor that had melted in the other, and a fried tweeter voice coil in one of the speakers. They definitely did not sound right but the old man (as he's lovingly referred) just thought they sounded a little muffled and maybe his amplifier was the problem (it kept going into protection). I rebuilt the crossovers with larger gauge air core inductors that had the same resistance value as the original solid cores, new electrolytic caps, and new titanium tweeter diaphragms. You could say that the sound was improved when compared to their fully functional original state, but they still sound like old Klipsch speakers. The old man bought them new in the 80s and has always loved their sound so this was the best case scenario for him.

Personally I do like the look of old wood grain monkey coffin speakers but I prefer the performance of a modern design. That is why I currently have Wharfedale Lintons. If you are looking for a similar look and design to your current speakers but want something new, I can recommend those.

The Lintons look interesting. Can you tell me about how they’ve been to own?

 

[HidesAmpsFromWife]

The Lintons look interesting. Can you tell me about how they’ve been to own?

Also, my budget tops at around $6,000 AUD, but the full amount won’t be accessible until around this time next year.

 

[AnalogSteph]

Would I be better off investing in rebuilding the crossovers / upgrading internal cabling etc.?

Forget about the cabling (it's generally way too short to matter much, ask Mr. Ohm if you don't believe me), but the crossover contains a few electrolytic caps that may at the very least be in need of some reforming and these seem to be good speakers (even if I would aim to smooth out the step around the baffle which is a diffraction source) so it should be worth it either way.

In this thread which yielded the following XO schematic, the owner was complaining about theirs sounding tizzy and a bit dull, and recapping the crossovers (all but the 3.3µF originally are electrolytics) fixed the issue. Some of the old caps had measured capacitance substantially above spec, which is a dead giveaway for excessive leakage current. I suppose you could reform these in both directions if you absolutely insisted, but a set of new ones is not likely to bankrupt you either (and may be cheaper if you don't actually have the tools needed for reforming). Mind you, you would probably have to cobble a few of them together because some values aren't exactly standard E-series ones.

Issues like poorly suppressed breakup modes may not be readily visible in an overall measurement at MLP (which mostly tells me that the 200-500ish Hz range in particular seems a bit lean), nearfield measurements of the individual drivers would be advisable instead.

@restorer-john might have a lead on some good sources for replacement caps "down under".

On a general note, these ought to have some very wide dispersion and as such they would be relying on a well-damped (or dare I say downright plush) room. Yours look cozy enough but I'm not sure whether it's up to that level entirely.

 

[pogo]

If recapping does not produce the desired results, you can loop in a Waxwing Phono DSP between the preamp and power amp. There you can adjust the sound smoother. As a by-product, you can use the Magic function to increase the playback quality of your records.

 

[HidesAmpsFromWife]

Forget about the cabling (it's generally way too short to matter much, ask Mr. Ohm if you don't believe me), but the crossover contains a few electrolytic caps that may at the very least be in need of some reforming and these seem to be good speakers (even if I would aim to smooth out the step around the baffle which is a diffraction source) so it should be worth it either way.

In this thread which yielded the following XO schematic, the owner was complaining about theirs sounding tizzy and a bit dull, and recapping the crossovers (all but the 3.3µF originally are electrolytics) fixed the issue. Some of the old caps had measured capacitance substantially above spec, which is a dead giveaway for excessive leakage current. I suppose you could reform these in both directions if you absolutely insisted, but a set of new ones is not likely to bankrupt you either (and may be cheaper if you don't actually have the tools needed for reforming). Mind you, you would probably have to cobble a few of them together because some values aren't exactly standard E-series ones.
View attachment 401698
Issues like poorly suppressed breakup modes may not be readily visible in an overall measurement at MLP (which mostly tells me that the 200-500ish Hz range in particular seems a bit lean), nearfield measurements of the individual drivers would be advisable instead.

@restorer-john might have a lead on some good sources for replacement caps "down under".

On a general note, these ought to have some very wide dispersion and as such they would be relying on a well-damped (or dare I say downright plush) room. Yours look cozy enough but I'm not sure whether it's up to that level entirely.

The 200-500ish Hz dip is part of what I want to correct. I love dome midranges but I also understand why most manufacturers don’t use them. Limited range and hard to cross over. The original tweeters were of no help, being so prone to premature death. I’ve replaced them so I’d like to bring the crossover down a bit to take some pressure (no pun intended) off the mid.

Dull is the last word I’d use to describe these. One of the things I love about them is the live in-room sound. A little like Klipsch but not honky. Very engaging at all levels.

Dispersion is very wide. Unfortunately the only available space I have to diffuse is the front wall and ceiling (and floor is suppose). Side walls are otherwise occupied.

 

[TimW]

The Lintons look interesting. Can you tell me about how they’ve been to own?

I've only owned them for about a month now but they have been great. Lovely to gaze upon whenever I enter the room. Per Erin's measurements I listen to them with the grill on and I use some of the filters from Spinorama.org to equalize their response. They are quite neutral even without equalization but there are a couple of small bumps in the treble that sound slightly forward and a recess in the mids that is more noticeable. The bass is surprisingly impressive for their size, to the point where I'm satisfied without a subwoofer.

 

[AnalogSteph]

The 200-500ish Hz dip is part of what I want to correct.

Then odds are you want some parametric EQ, probably in one of those newfangled DSP boxes. (Heresy!) Do you reckon your tape loop still has some space for a miniDSP 2x4HD? The current V2 version seems decent in performance:

miniDSP 2x4 HD (DDRC-24) V2 simple measurement and teardown pictures

Since Amirm has reviewed miniDSP 2x4HD, there is new V2 version with different DAC/ADC chip (probably due to AKM fire), seems no one has published the measurement data and pictures of internal components, so I make some simple measurements and teardown. I am new to audio measurement field, so...

www.audiosciencereview.com

You could hide the thing somewhere out of sight in order to not spoil the vintage vibe.

Getting a measurement mic along the way would also permit checking crossover performance.

I’ve replaced them so I’d like to bring the crossover down a bit to take some pressure (no pun intended) off the mid.

I would think that the better place to do that would be on the bottom end rather than the top, dispersion permitting (although yes, 4.5 kHz is a fairly high XO even for a 19mm dome). You wouldn't happen to have an impedance sweep of the midranges though? Electrical nonlinearity can result in distortion peaks when filtered through breakup modes. A series notch in recommended to nuke those then. My rule of thumb for the upper frequency limit determined by electrical nonlinearity would be where you see impedance rise by about 1.5 times compared to its minimum.

The Ditton 551 brochure is showing an off-axis oopsie around 2.2ish kHz at 30°, which may be one cause for your perception of harsh midrange. That has to be some sort of geometry thing, though I couldn't tell you what exactly would be causing it. I would try placing some black felt around the baffle edge to mitigate dispersion there and hope for the best.