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So, what are recommendable amps below 200$?
- Thread starter goodkeys
- Start date
Do you mean the rear TS/TSR port is directly connected to the ICEpower module? I might be totally wrong about the "only SE mode is available" I was just reading something like that to go into bridge mode with an unbalanced source an additional "inverter" board needs to be added, which I thought was partially the task of the input buffer. On balanced inputs this might not be needed though.
I don't have a balanced source, so I can't bypass the input buffer in bridge mode if that is the case. At this point it is still not clear to me how to bypass the input buffer even in SE mode. Right now I'm listening using RCA input in SE mode, and I'll probably try using both amps in BTL mode later tonight to see what happens. I'm happy to keep playing around with the setup given some instruction on how to setup the interconnects.
My impressions so far are that the Vocopro is pretty good. I have a 50 year old McIntosh MC2100 sitting right next to the Vocopro that weighs and costs (on the used market) about ten times as much. The highs sound more shrill to me with less control of the bass drivers compared to the McIntosh. The McIntosh was tested when it went into the shop last year – THD at 105W is .08% at 20hz, .035% at 2khz, and .12% at 20khz. It reaches 1% THD @ 2khz at 120W, 15W above its rated power. My speakers present an issue with comparison because they are Polk 7Cs, and who knows what their impedance curve and frequency response looks like... I will be replacing them this weekend pending the completion of a DIY project.
My impressions so far are that the Vocopro is pretty good. I have a 50 year old McIntosh MC2100 sitting right next to the Vocopro that weighs and costs (on the used market) about ten times as much. The highs sound more shrill to me with less control of the bass drivers compared to the McIntosh. The McIntosh was tested when it went into the shop last year – THD at 105W is .08% at 20hz, .035% at 2khz, and .12% at 20khz. It reaches 1% THD @ 2khz at 120W, 15W above its rated power. My speakers present an issue with comparison because they are Polk 7Cs, and who knows what their impedance curve and frequency response looks like... I will be replacing them this weekend pending the completion of a DIY project.
I mean connecting the unbalanced inputs directly to the board, like if it was a "pure" kit, for example a Ghent Audio case kit: https://www.ghentaudio.com/kit/asx125-sr.html
This is my first post, it will take me a while till I get the hang of what is going on here but I am presuming my 2 cents contribution worth should help the theory in order to compile that list of best amps under $200. To make up for it, ill try digging deep so some of the experts can chime in with some information on the chip-sets and other reasons for my answer which in turn might help us choose a better amp.
I have bought the FX Audio 1002A, The Dayton DTA pro, Dayton APA150 and compared it to my old NADC356DAC and to each other. I tried both the FX audio and the Dayton APA150 with the Dayton DAC01 and with my NADC510 a 1k preamp.
To start with the NADC510 sounds digitally and very harsh to me, I never use it, sometimes its hooked up with a analogue crossover in between and my NAD356 as a power amp on the end. This has been scrapped for the NAD356 with the crossover in-between the Pre and power amp section. Crossover is to crossover two 12inch subs.
Moving on, The APA150 class A/B beats the FX audio class D amp with a range of speakers from small to large 3 ways. The NADC510 definitely helps out the APA150 with distortion and overall quality but does nothing to relieve the FX audio's dull and very bassy and nasty low end. The Dayton DTA Pro is my favourite but it can't power medium to large bookshelfs at 50 watts per channel its pretty weak. But when connecting it up to my Bantams micro speaker honestly, the bass reproduction the transients on that small Bantams the overall quality of sound was something that the APA150 didn't match but this was on the Bantams once you switch to a larger speaker and increase the volume the APA150 stood out.
TAS5342A TAS5508C these two chip sets don't seem to be used on any of FX audio's gear in general further research leads me to believe that Dayton chooses the better chip-sets and configures their own schematic and FX audio is the one who assembles them in China for Dayton. I am guessing not a 100% sure. And as Dayton buys in bulk Daytons products are beating their Chinese counterparts with prices. As individuals purchasing one item we choose the Chinese option as they are cheaper and end up with there low end gear which is not the case as the Dayton DTA Pro is cheaper and significantly better at its price point the closest FX audio counterpart is the D2160 which sells for $180 using a TA5614 TAS5548 with both amps using the PCM1808 for the DAC. This is a pity as you would hope that China would try and beat there competition by selling us the better amp for cheaper so we stick with them for business but it seems the US does it again somehow.
Ultimately in this bunch you get what you pay for, the NAD356 is the best, with the NADC510's sharp sound not for my liking. The Dayton DTA Pro should be tested, i don't have it at this time but if purchase another one I will send it to Amir and then he can post it to me. The DTA pro and APA150 need more A/B testing to see which one is better sonically but no doubt powering the micro speakers the DTA pro shinned. Also, the FX audio cuts out/clips on some speakers could be due to the slight drop in ohms, I have brought this up with the company.
I have purchased a preamp from FX audio and will hook it up to the APA and the FX100 to see how it helps the power amps.
Disclaimer. FX audio does good business and I will keep trying there equipment. I need to know if similar equipment exists from other companies is sold with slightly better quality for similar price. I understand that they are cheap and there not bad at all, the FX 100 powers up my massive Amiga MT towers and they sound okay but like Amir says can i recommend it or use it myself? No. Can I recommend the APA 150 for speakers under 300 or 400 dollars. Yes.
I have bought the FX Audio 1002A, The Dayton DTA pro, Dayton APA150 and compared it to my old NADC356DAC and to each other. I tried both the FX audio and the Dayton APA150 with the Dayton DAC01 and with my NADC510 a 1k preamp.
To start with the NADC510 sounds digitally and very harsh to me, I never use it, sometimes its hooked up with a analogue crossover in between and my NAD356 as a power amp on the end. This has been scrapped for the NAD356 with the crossover in-between the Pre and power amp section. Crossover is to crossover two 12inch subs.
Moving on, The APA150 class A/B beats the FX audio class D amp with a range of speakers from small to large 3 ways. The NADC510 definitely helps out the APA150 with distortion and overall quality but does nothing to relieve the FX audio's dull and very bassy and nasty low end. The Dayton DTA Pro is my favourite but it can't power medium to large bookshelfs at 50 watts per channel its pretty weak. But when connecting it up to my Bantams micro speaker honestly, the bass reproduction the transients on that small Bantams the overall quality of sound was something that the APA150 didn't match but this was on the Bantams once you switch to a larger speaker and increase the volume the APA150 stood out.
TAS5342A TAS5508C these two chip sets don't seem to be used on any of FX audio's gear in general further research leads me to believe that Dayton chooses the better chip-sets and configures their own schematic and FX audio is the one who assembles them in China for Dayton. I am guessing not a 100% sure. And as Dayton buys in bulk Daytons products are beating their Chinese counterparts with prices. As individuals purchasing one item we choose the Chinese option as they are cheaper and end up with there low end gear which is not the case as the Dayton DTA Pro is cheaper and significantly better at its price point the closest FX audio counterpart is the D2160 which sells for $180 using a TA5614 TAS5548 with both amps using the PCM1808 for the DAC. This is a pity as you would hope that China would try and beat there competition by selling us the better amp for cheaper so we stick with them for business but it seems the US does it again somehow.
Ultimately in this bunch you get what you pay for, the NAD356 is the best, with the NADC510's sharp sound not for my liking. The Dayton DTA Pro should be tested, i don't have it at this time but if purchase another one I will send it to Amir and then he can post it to me. The DTA pro and APA150 need more A/B testing to see which one is better sonically but no doubt powering the micro speakers the DTA pro shinned. Also, the FX audio cuts out/clips on some speakers could be due to the slight drop in ohms, I have brought this up with the company.
I have purchased a preamp from FX audio and will hook it up to the APA and the FX100 to see how it helps the power amps.
Disclaimer. FX audio does good business and I will keep trying there equipment. I need to know if similar equipment exists from other companies is sold with slightly better quality for similar price. I understand that they are cheap and there not bad at all, the FX 100 powers up my massive Amiga MT towers and they sound okay but like Amir says can i recommend it or use it myself? No. Can I recommend the APA 150 for speakers under 300 or 400 dollars. Yes.
Trdat, just to let you know, on this forum , not much credence is given to listening tests unless they are performed blind and by a panel ,more or less along the lines of the methodologies made famous by Drs. Floyd Toole , Sean Olive and Earl Geddes.
Saying amp A beats amp B is an opinion, which while we can't eliminate all of them, here it's "show me the data".
Sending things to Amir for testing is an exceedingly good idea. Comparing notes on construction details and chip (sets) used are too since those are
objectively viewable facts. Facts are sorely lacking in the audiophile hobby.
Your speculation above regarding the Chinese equipment production black box, is something probably many of use have engaged in. We would all like to find the sweet spot. Some Chinese amp boards that are almost free , and perform as well as Hypex or IcePower. If you find that spot let us know.
Welcome to the Forum.
Saying amp A beats amp B is an opinion, which while we can't eliminate all of them, here it's "show me the data".
Sending things to Amir for testing is an exceedingly good idea. Comparing notes on construction details and chip (sets) used are too since those are
objectively viewable facts. Facts are sorely lacking in the audiophile hobby.
Your speculation above regarding the Chinese equipment production black box, is something probably many of use have engaged in. We would all like to find the sweet spot. Some Chinese amp boards that are almost free , and perform as well as Hypex or IcePower. If you find that spot let us know.
Welcome to the Forum.
Actually, just blind and level matched. No panel needed.
Blind meaning not knowing whether a or b is playing, not blindfolded.
Match levels so one isn't louder than the other.
It isn't just that it won't be valid to 'us' otherwise, it's that it won't be valid to you or anyone else either. Even what seemed to be obvious differences tend to disappear once you don't make one louder than the other, and you don't peek and can't know what is playing.
The brain is full of bias, and this way you can see if what you believe you hear is 'real' or not.
Assuming a normal listening level, I can't tell the difference between my old Denon receivers and my Krell or my Bryston or my Adcom, etc...once those conditions are met.
Cheers!
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renaudrenaud
Major Contributor
If it is an old Demon receiver, he has the ability to do what he wants, sounds like a Krell or Bryston...
Thanks for your reply and now that you have mentioned it you are correct about blind tests or personal opinions.
Totally agree and understand. I was under impression that some observations could be supported by the data that has been collected with measuring which in turn would help. But I suppose we are sticking to pure science here. I just would like to understand more about the Chinese black box thing as well, and some personal opinions could come a long way that said Amir's measurements and conclusion section does that job in that respect. So, yes no personal blind tests perhaps more questions on the whole Chinese thing and a few replies will get me up to speed.
My only problem is I have 4 years of forum to catch up on(lol) and unfortunately all the tests are not on the review page. Example I can't find the APA150 even a search doesn't bring up the test that I saw a while back.
That said, I am keen on Digital DSP and curious if anything a long that line has been tested and I am looking at ones with digital input so I can have my DAC on the output end of it. Let me know if that has been delved into so I can search for it.
Feel free to report blind test results! Those are what we don't get enough of! People come in don't understand their uncontrolled subjective opinions aren't telling them anything at all.
Welcome! Don't be afraid...
So much to learn here... I find myself going through old threads all the time...
Great thanks for that. I mean I just thought it might supplement the thread, seeing that I had a hand ful of amps in that category. But aware the whole Chinese amp thing has been analysed previously. Anyway, will get to speed soon!
What is the turnaround on @amirm testing and returning an amp? I found the VocoPro for $70 as an open box unit and picked it up for future projects, and would be game to ship it to him for testing if the backlog was less than, say, 6 months.
I wonder if he has any of the Allo amplifiers in his backlog? There are quite a few people on the diyaudio forum who think highly of the Volt+ and Volt+D amps, and Allo's DACs always seem to perform well on Amir's objective testing. The Volt+D amp seems like a potentially great bargain at ~$140 since they are supposed to be a turnkey implementation of the TI 3118 reference design with an equal or better BOM.
I wonder if he has any of the Allo amplifiers in his backlog? There are quite a few people on the diyaudio forum who think highly of the Volt+ and Volt+D amps, and Allo's DACs always seem to perform well on Amir's objective testing. The Volt+D amp seems like a potentially great bargain at ~$140 since they are supposed to be a turnkey implementation of the TI 3118 reference design with an equal or better BOM.
BDWoody said:
You are a brave man to admit that. "Obviously there is something wrong with your ears"
I actually came to the same conclusion ages ago. The difference between the best amps and not so good is really hard to hear especially if level matching is bothered with. Sometimes you can pick which is which without really knowing which one is more accurate too. Regular audiophiles HATE this observation.
I once(late eighties) did the same experiment with a Dyna Stereo 120 versus my Pioneer M-22 Class A amp. We could not pick out which was which reliably when operating full range.(Speakers were JBL Dorian cabinets with D130 and O75) One also has to keep in mind statistical significance. You not only need to be able to pick which is which but for one to be really proven better you have to pick correctly 80 to 90 per cent of the time. just a majority is not good enough. When compared against a Quad 405 current dumping amp, on the 100 to 1000 Hz ten inch channel(on my big monster four ways) the picks(Dyna vs Quad) were complete random coin flips. The guy I built them with and I wasted a LOT of time on those tests. After which we probably worried about stuff a lot less.
I still want stuff from the green quartile though.
You are a brave man to admit that. "Obviously there is something wrong with your ears"
I actually came to the same conclusion ages ago. The difference between the best amps and not so good is really hard to hear especially if level matching is bothered with. Sometimes you can pick which is which without really knowing which one is more accurate too. Regular audiophiles HATE this observation.
I once(late eighties) did the same experiment with a Dyna Stereo 120 versus my Pioneer M-22 Class A amp. We could not pick out which was which reliably when operating full range.(Speakers were JBL Dorian cabinets with D130 and O75) One also has to keep in mind statistical significance. You not only need to be able to pick which is which but for one to be really proven better you have to pick correctly 80 to 90 per cent of the time. just a majority is not good enough. When compared against a Quad 405 current dumping amp, on the 100 to 1000 Hz ten inch channel(on my big monster four ways) the picks(Dyna vs Quad) were complete random coin flips. The guy I built them with and I wasted a LOT of time on those tests. After which we probably worried about stuff a lot less.
I still want stuff from the green quartile though.
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BDWoody said:
You are a brave man to admit that. "Obviously there is something wrong with your ears"
I actually came to the same conclusion ages ago. The difference between the best amps and not so good is really hard to hear especially if level matching is bothered with. Sometimes you can pick which is which without really knowing which one is more accurate too. Regular audiophiles HATE this observation.
Yes...i have gotten that reply. That, or the rest of my system must suck.
Neither is true.
And a quibble- you don't need a panel for answering the question, "Can I hear the difference between A and B?" But yeah, definitely, it needs to be done double blind, level matched, and a sufficient number of repetitions to be statistically significant.
Aah, yes I forgot. "It's not necessarily your ears, it's that junque system you use. If you spent a few tens of thousands on some decent interconnect cables THEN you MIGHT be able to hear the emperor's new clothes."
The reason I am partial to panels is after we built my spikkers and my pal built hisself an all JBL set up that was equally wonderful, we assisted a St. Louis symphony violinist to build a very wonderful set up. Based on a pair of Bozak Concert Grands he bought where in somebody had built cabinets using one inch thick solid mahogany. They were gorgeous. He added a Technics ribbon super tweeter at the top. He was Japanese and had tons of Japanese audio magazines. They all depicted clubs with folding chairs and members with clipboards. They did test after test and somebody calculated statistics on the results which they included in the articles. My builder friend and I both were employed at a Washington University Medical School. We were impressed with that. It was so much more professional that what was going on here which was essentially nothing. This was in the mid to late 1970s. During that period the only get togethers in St. Louis were at stores when they hosted product introductions. We now have a pretty nice club in St.Louis but it still doesn't hold a candle to how those Japanese amateurs were approaching it. Everybody THINKS they know something.
Panels would make it easier to reach statistical significance.
The reason I am partial to panels is after we built my spikkers and my pal built hisself an all JBL set up that was equally wonderful, we assisted a St. Louis symphony violinist to build a very wonderful set up. Based on a pair of Bozak Concert Grands he bought where in somebody had built cabinets using one inch thick solid mahogany. They were gorgeous. He added a Technics ribbon super tweeter at the top. He was Japanese and had tons of Japanese audio magazines. They all depicted clubs with folding chairs and members with clipboards. They did test after test and somebody calculated statistics on the results which they included in the articles. My builder friend and I both were employed at a Washington University Medical School. We were impressed with that. It was so much more professional that what was going on here which was essentially nothing. This was in the mid to late 1970s. During that period the only get togethers in St. Louis were at stores when they hosted product introductions. We now have a pretty nice club in St.Louis but it still doesn't hold a candle to how those Japanese amateurs were approaching it. Everybody THINKS they know something.
Panels would make it easier to reach statistical significance.
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Aah, yes I forgot. "It's not necessarily your ears, it's that junque system you use. If you spent a few tens of thousands on some decent interconnect cables THEN you MIGHT be able to hear the emperor's new clothes."
Indeed.
I've been messing around with different combinations of speakers and rooms lately, and I'm finally getting my LS50's playing nice with my subwoofers, and my subwoofers with my room...after a lot of monkeying around...and I would venture my little setup that costs far less than some interconnects out there would absolutely embarrass a lot of folks with $10,000+ systems who haven't bothered to do any basic room correction, or sub integration.
Anyway...I also will always choose things 'in the green' when I get them, and will often spend more than I NEED to for whatever it may be for whatever reason...then won't worry about it anymore, and keep stuff forever.
Please don't send it to him as it is, the general consensus on the diyaudio.com forum is that the Vocopro preamp module really ruins that amp. I'm waiting for mine but the first thing I'll do is to bypass that preamp board, possibly by buying the Ghent audio signal cable from their pro kit.
https://www.ghentaudio.com/cable/125asx2pro.html
So what would be nice is to send the "pure" board amp to him, so he could review all 125ASX2 amps based on the pure performance of the ICEpower module.
