Snake oil and fraud in the professional audio community

[anmpr1]

Here's a guy using compressors, equalizers, amps, all with god knows how many feet of wire and active circuitry in the signal path, and yet he can hear differences in a few feet of connecting cable? And that few feet of hook up wire makes all the difference in the world? Next!

 

[Fluffy]

Assuming every time an audio engineer claims that a certain type of cable or gear have a "sound" it's down to a particular distortion profile, I wonder how would music sound recorded through an ultra-transparent and linear sounding system. Maybe what's keeping humanity from listening to completely transparently recorded music is that every engineer thinks that his own imperfect system sounds the best.

It's like hearing Paul Mcgowan talks about how "musicality", whatever that is, is more important than having a lower THD…

 

[pozz]

Assuming every time an audio engineer claims that a certain type of cable or gear have a "sound" it's down to a particular distortion profile...

I really wish I knew more about audio.

Let's a say a pro claimed that each piece had its own signature (but he's a savvy pro, and believes sufficient measurements can characterize that piece of gear more or less completely). If I had knew enough, I would say something like: if you're facing this issue which is due to this measured deficiency, you can counteract is like this. Or I would say: the effects of this deficiency are negligible.

But I think the issue is that "unique gear signature" is taken to be the main reason why a certain record has it's own particular sound. That the right combination of gear is special, and that you aren't just looking for quality. This compressor's "crunchy", this one has edge. I wish you could simply point to a time-response curve and say: chill out and pay attention to the difference in release times and level.

I wonder how would music sound recorded through an ultra-transparent and linear sounding system.

Wouldn't sound too much different, honestly, unless you're talking microphones and speakers.

Psychoacoustics, room acoustics, equipment characteristics: the list of things to understand.

Anyway, more on this later.

 

[OldHardwareTech]

The fact you're thinking about it means that you're above the herd, mate.

The anointed cloths may not be a big seller in Ireland these days, but I think it's an interesting angle worth pursuing. An angel investor is all that's needed.

The funniest thing I saw was at a HS science fair... imagine three feet of lamp cord, stripped of its insulation and terminated in a plug, wrapped around a house plant. It sought to prove that an electrical field affects plant growth.

My take, as a young fella, was that its intent was to test the school's fuse panel and fire suppression system (these were the days before ground fault sockets and breakers). Wisely, my science teacher put a large sign on it stating "DO NOT PLUG IN".

Years of higher education and professional employment later, I would really have liked to see what would have happened (even though the outcome was as certain as gravity).

For my 5th grade science fair I built a working arc furnace. The fun bits were 2 carbon rods connected directly to AC. Worked great in my dad's shop with 200 amp service but at school it killed the power to the whole building! 70 amp service, I think. In that day and time it necessitated a trip to the hardware store to buy fuses. Lol. Ah, the good old days.

 

[GrimSurfer]

For my 5th grade science fair I built a working arc furnace. The fun bits were 2 carbon rods connected directly to AC. Worked great in my dad's shop with 200 amp service but at school it killed the power to the whole building! 70 amp service, I think. In that day and time it necessitated a trip to the hardware store to buy fuses. Lol. Ah, the good old days.

That's awesome! Bet you were a hero after blacking out the school. Serves them right for only having a 70A (!) service.

 

[GrimSurfer]

It's like hearing Paul Mcgowan talks about how "musicality"…

Yeah... musicality.

I can imagine he's the kind of guy who, when night falls, goes "Rick Wakeman" on his Hammond organ.

 

[OldHardwareTech]

That's awesome! Bet you were a hero after blacking out the school. Serves them right for only having a 70A (!) service.

In those days 70 amps was a lot, the building housed the school auditorium and junior high classrooms. And yeah I made a lot of kids happy that day.

 

[Hipper]

Greg Calbi isn't alone:

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/thre...er-ultimate-reference-cables-are-ready.47670/

 

[daftcombo]

A thread about snake oil and fraud in hi-fi and totaldac hasn't been mentioned yet?
This has been fixed.
What do you mean by "pro" by the way? If there's snake oil it's not pro any more. Like modern medecine VS voodoo.

 

[Eirikur]

A thread about snake oil and fraud in hi-fi and totaldac hasn't been mentioned yet?

I'm still wrapping my mind around their "embedded custom clock with anti-jitter FIFO memory"

 

[digicidal]

A thread about snake oil and fraud in hi-fi and totaldac hasn't been mentioned yet?
This has been fixed.
What do you mean by "pro" by the way? If there's snake oil it's not pro any more. Like modern medecine VS voodoo.

Well, that's only an analogy made possible by hindsight. Although there will likely be far fewer instances of "bloodletting" and "opium tonics" perhaps, I can easily see a point 100 years in the future (maybe far less) where a number of modern medicine's standard practices are considered voodoo snake-oil. Particularly in cancer treatment and pain management areas. Much of what separates snake oil from science is entirely based on the body of knowledge involved - we do the best with what we have/what we know kinda thing. Thankfully the body of knowledge is constantly being expanded - but in the case of a 50-60 year old engineer... you'd likely have to consider what was known when he was training - not just what is known now.

I'm not saying you're wrong - I totally agree with you - however, there are many professionals who sadly do not pursue/update their knowledge during their careers. At least not with even 1% of the effort that they did when they were preparing to start their careers. The few that continually update their knowledge as well as continue to question every "accepted fact" until proven beyond question - are exceptional and definitely not the average "pro" IME at least.

 

[bogart]

Here's a guy using compressors, equalizers, amps, all with god knows how many feet of wire and active circuitry in the signal path, and yet he can hear differences in a few feet of connecting cable? And that few feet of hook up wire makes all the difference in the world? Next!

Totally agree with you that he's not hearing a difference between the interconnects, and that they're entirely beside the point in a very long signal path to his ears. That said, he also produces excellent sounding albums across a range of styles. Honestly, having gone back to his recent discography, I'm going to say he's mastered some of my favorite sounding records from recent memory (Fleet Foxes, Chris Thile + Brad Mehldau, The National). So what do I make of this heresy?

Taking a devil's advocate position, perhaps the artifice of changing cables is useful to him as a way to drawing focus to his work. Unless one of the cables is ridiculously ill-spec'd (in which case, maybe just use a clock radio?), we can all agree that there's no objective difference between the sounds they transmit. But, if switching them tunes him into listening for the defects he's trying to squash, it isn't useless, it's just (non-zero) auditory placebo effect. On the strength of his work, I won't criticize his process... I just won't let him build my system (or fund his).

I'll stick to gear that delivers out as close to what is put in as we can manage, but I don't mind if there's a shaman in the room making the output if the finished product is tasteful.

 

[TimVG]

Apart from the snake oil, knowledge about loudspeakers and rooms among "professionals" is abysmal in many cases. Many of them are stuck in the 80s/90s. I've had discussions with some. Trying to talk sense in someone who is technically a "professional" is about as easy as nailing jelly to a tree. The more experienced, the worse.

 

[digicidal]

Apart from the snake oil, knowledge about loudspeakers and rooms among "professionals" is abysmal in many cases. Many of them are stuck in the 80s/90s. I've had discussions with some. Trying to talk sense in someone who is technically a "professional" is about as easy as nailing jelly to a tree. The more experienced, the worse.

Well, there is a huge variability between professionals in any field, and in the personalities (egos) involved as well which factors strongly into that equation. I'm a "professional programmer" but despite almost 30 years experience, I consider myself significantly lacking in knowledge in that particular area. Perhaps some of it is a lack of inherent aptitude (I didn't pick my career as much as it picked me) but mostly it's because I've always held positions where I wore a dozen hats at one time.

So while I wouldn't dream of taking an authoritative position on coding practices (especially current ones) or best language/framework - I would be comfortable casually discussing hardware, network infrastructure, business finance, government procurement procedures, OSHA regulations, etc. It's the jack of all trades/master of none reality I live in.

I don't have time to develop an up-to-date level of programming knowledge while doing everything else at the same time. On the other hand, I've hired several very knowledgeable programmers for various projects - and they were often paralyzed by a simple hardware conflict or confused about how to connect via VPN.

I can easily see someone with a wealth of mixing and general musical knowledge having little to no awareness of the actual physics involved in their studio monitors or room treatments. Likewise I'm sure there are some pros who could build a fantastic studio and build a great pair of speakers as well... but you wouldn't want to hear an album they mixed.

 

[day7a1]

you'd likely have to consider what was known when he was training

This is something that I've noticed is more widespread than I ever would have thought. We imagine specialists to be very knowledgeable, which would imply that they are constantly updating their knowledge necessary for their profession.

The truth is that most senior level anything are basically stuck in the thinking that was prevalent 20-30 years ago. The 3 hardest words in the English language are "I don't know" and it shows.

I got my undergrad degree in philosophy, which at the time I was well aware that it may not be so useful for any particular job. I've since learned that the skills I learned there have prevented me from believing my own bullshit (mostly ), being able to think critically in a variety of contexts, and processing new information. I'm not so down on that decision anymore. It gets a bad rap.

 

[day7a1]

Maybe what's keeping humanity from listening to completely transparently recorded music is that every engineer thinks that his own imperfect system sounds the best.

I would say that any sound coming directly from an instrument has zero distortion by definition. The issue you bring up here is where does the instrument end and the recording begin? If you're only talking about jazz in a studio room, then sure, maybe you can try for "transparently recorded music".

But that's an artistic goal that, to my mind, has no more weight than saturating the vocalist's specifically chosen mic/pre-amp combo for the purposes of making a recording that sounds pleasing to the artists who make the music.

I can attest that it is a skill to translate what an artist wants the tracking to sound like into an actual distortion/compression profile. It helps to make electronic music. Starting out with a sine wave and turning it into a guitar sound allows you to reverse engineer the guitar sound to remove or add the FR and distortion that will translate to what the artist wants on the track.

I mean, you can't just stick a ribbon mic next to a 300w guitar amp/ quad cabinet and hope for the best.

Of course, I try to not get personally offended by people who are ok with, or even claim to prefer, distortion products and FR bias in their playback chain. A lot of work went into this recording people, get your grimy distortion artifacts off of it!

 

[TimVG]

Well, there is a huge variability between professionals in any field, and in the personalities (egos) involved as well which factors strongly into that equation. I'm a "professional programmer" but despite almost 30 years experience, I consider myself significantly lacking in knowledge in that particular area. Perhaps some of it is a lack of inherent aptitude (I didn't pick my career as much as it picked me) but mostly it's because I've always held positions where I wore a dozen hats at one time.

So while I wouldn't dream of taking an authoritative position on coding practices (especially current ones) or best language/framework - I would be comfortable casually discussing hardware, network infrastructure, business finance, government procurement procedures, OSHA regulations, etc. It's the jack of all trades/master of none reality I live in.

I don't have time to develop an up-to-date level of programming knowledge while doing everything else at the same time. On the other hand, I've hired several very knowledgeable programmers for various projects - and they were often paralyzed by a simple hardware conflict or confused about how to connect via VPN.

I can easily see someone with a wealth of mixing and general musical knowledge having little to no awareness of the actual physics involved in their studio monitors or room treatments. Likewise I'm sure there are some pros who could build a fantastic studio and build a great pair of speakers as well... but you wouldn't want to hear an album they mixed.

Good post. My own experiences were relating more to those that are obivously cluecless about loudspeakers and rooms, yet are convinced that they have expert knowledge ;-)

 

[Wombat]

Good post. My own experiences were relating more to those that are obivously cluecless about loudspeakers and rooms, yet are convinced that they have expert knowledge ;-)

Knowledge without understanding is not of much use in technical discussion.

 

[digicidal]

Knowledge without understanding is not of much use in technical discussion.

Agreed. I would add that knowledge without application experience is of limited use as well. Things often function "perfectly" in a lab or classroom environment but when attempted in the real world perform quite differently. Every "expert" I've spoken with that had significant real-world professional experience in their field was infinitely more informative (and largely far less egotistical) than those who were only experts in the academic sense. It's easy, in the right environment, to think you know everything - and just as easy in a professional one to learn you don't know much at all.

Every well-engineered speaker will measure as flat as possible, anechoically - but that doesn't mean the subtle differences don't become huge ones once you get them home and start listening with your room involved in the equation. Of course EQ/DSP can come to the rescue, but that wasn't my point.

 

[pozz]

Everyone below repeats at least some of the audiophile claims in one way or another. None of them are frauds. Mostly they have unclear notions about acoustics, like easily hearing 0.1dB changes dialed into your DAW, and strong gear fetishism (which includes cables).

The main issue is that there is so much good information and advice mixed with so much that is bad. Same as it goes for audiophile sources.

• Bob Katz, mixing & mastering engineer: Interview with Production Masters, Interview with SAE Paris
• Bob Ludwig, mastering engineer: Interview with Warren Huart, also a member of AES and included in their oral history
• Bobby Owsinski, mixing, mastering & recording engineer, published books for studio construction, mixing and recording: blog/interview with a rep from Wireworld, and another discussing cables in a podcast for an audio engineering school, and yet himself calls out other audiophile tweaks.
• Dave Pensado, recording & mastering engineer: on power cables
• David Chesky, recording & mastering engineer: Just read the description of the recording chain for this CD: "Brüel & Kjær 4100-D Binaural head (Lars), Crystal Cable into the MSB 384/32 Analog to Digital Converter"
• Gus Skinas, mastering engineer: PS DirectStream DAC World Premiere
• Steve Hoffman, mastering engineer: Interview with PS Audio
• Streaky, mastering engineer: Do Cables Change the Sound?
• Tony Andrews, designer of the Funktion One PA speakers for clubs & concerts: Keeping the Signal Path Pure, TEDx Talk, Red Bull Lecture.