Sigberg Audio SBS.1 Active speakers development thread

[sigbergaudio]

Still not perfect as this dips down a bit too low between 2.5-4khz off-axis, so to be continued, but just wanted to share +/-2.5dB and linear phase from 500hz-18.5khz. The only reason I'm not showing lower frequencies is that I don't have a clean measurements without room modes at the moment. No EQ points on the tweeter below 9khz.

This is 50cm on-axis (bright green line is phase).

A pair of black pre-production cabinets tilted 4 degrees is expected in a couple of weeks, I think it's going to look awesome! Can't wait to share pictures.

 

[Mnyb]

Hmm some concern .

What would a total package cost 1 or 2 subs and 2 speakers ? Your sub prices are slightly eye watering for what they are honestly, quite normal drivers in a closed box with a hypex amp. The box is nice furniture grade and formfactor is big bonus I would pay for that but ?

Can one reuse such a sub as a Rhytmic FV15HP as I already have or would integration be a pain ? Is proper integration done trough the high pass out of one of your subs ?

is there DSP in both sub and speaker ? would my signal first go to a sub and AD/DA to a Speaker who also has DSP to be AD/DA converted again ?

If these kind of prices are asked I would expect a total digital path to speaker and sub a kind of control center digital pre/pro who then sends their output to the speaker in digital form to each part in full resolution (volume control should be in speakers after digital XO with that data send over to the speaker from the controller). And some kind of full room EQ built into the system. Just like my 20yo old Meridian kit

Or maybe WISA is good enough . Make the set WISA speakers ?

If the speaker provide an analog path one could use a mini DSP SHD or similar to achieve sub integration ?

What kind of total system architechure do you have in mind for this ? thats really the question .

And a bit perplexed just about every mfg of expensive DSP speakers just give up and don't offer any digital path to their digital speakers , it is a can of worms and no standards seems to exist , but we cant be stuck here forever, no one dares the first step ? WISA is a kind of pseudo standard that tries to do this ? is it good enough thou ? would enough brands jump onto this .
I can accept that a good analog input must exist due it being the predicableable long term "always works" input , but not as the only input ?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Hmm some concern .

What would a total package cost 1 or 2 subs and 2 speakers ? Your sub prices are slightly eye watering for what they are honestly, quite normal drivers in a closed box with a hypex amp. The box is nice furniture grade and formfactor is big bonus I would pay for that but ?

Can one reuse such a sub as a Rhytmic FV15HP as I already have or would integration be a pain ? Is proper integration done trough the high pass out of one of your subs ?

is there DSP in both sub and speaker ? would my signal first go to a sub and AD/DA to a Speaker who also has DSP to be AD/DA converted again ?

If these kind of prices are asked I would expect a total digital path to speaker and sub a kind of control center digital pre/pro who then sends their output to the speaker in digital form to each part in full resolution (volume control should be in speakers after digital XO with that data send over to the speaker from the controller). And some kind of full room EQ built into the system. Just like my 20yo old Meridian kit

Or maybe WISA is good enough . Make the set WISA speakers ?

If the speaker provide an analog path one could use a mini DSP SHD or similar to achieve sub integration ?

What kind of total system architechure do you have in mind for this ? thats really the question .

And a bit perplexed just about every mfg of expensive DSP speakers just give up and don't offer any digital path to their digital speakers , it is a can of worms and no standards seems to exist , but we cant be stuck here forever, no one dares the first step ? WISA is a kind of pseudo standard that tries to do this ? is it good enough thou ? would enough brands jump onto this .
I can accept that a good analog input must exist due it being the predicableable long term "always works" input , but not as the only input ?

A lot of questions here, but I will try to answer them one at a time.

Price for our existing subwoofers: We would argue that the sound quality is higher than a lot of the competition due to both superior drivers, superior amplifiers and DSP, as well as very well built cabinet. It would of course be up to the customer whether they are willing to pay for that. And if you compare with other subwoofers aiming for a similar market like the new KEF KC62 (which is cheaper but also relatively expensive), we also provide twice the output even from our smallest subwoofer. This is of course also a matter of which market you are in. If you have 10,000USD speakers, you don't pair it with a 500USD subwoofer. I also understand that if you have 1,000USD speakers, you probably don't buy our subwoofers. That's perfectly fine.

Price for a package: This is yet to be determined exactly. But you're likely talking minimum ~8,000USD for a pair of these speakers combined with our smallest Inkognito subwoofer. We have the 10D coming up too, so a killer combination would be the SBS.1 combined with 2x 10D. That would set you back ~12,000USD. This is not cheap. It also does not sound cheap. We've had pretty competent people here to listen to our prototypes, and speakers like the B&W 800D and the Kef Blade 2 have been mentioned in discussions regarding the sound stage and overall impression. A reporter from a Norwegian hifi magazine has also been here. When discussing SBS.1 + one 10D (which is what we listened to), he simply could not come up with a pair of speakers within the price range that sounded anything like it. Also remember that you will not need a power amplifier (which would typically set you back several thousand USD in this price bracket), you could connect this directly to a streamer, and have a complete system.

Integrating with existing subwoofers: The speakers are "high-passed" out of the box, as they will have a -3dB point at 80-90hz. So yes you would be able to pair them with an existing subwoofer. If you don't have existing room calibration or crossover-capabilities in your amplifier, it will be even easier than with a "normal" speakers, since you can utilize your subwoofer at a larger part of the frequency range.

Signal path: There's a DSP both in the subwoofers and the speakers, and you have access to manual 9-band PEQ in both the subwoofer and in each individual speaker for room calibration. You would connect this like you would a normal sub, and a power amplifier. The subwoofers support High-level, RCA and XLR. The speakers support RCA, XLR and also Optical/Coaxial for digital input, but you may have some trouble finding streamers/preamps with variable level digital outputs. Yes, if you use analog inputs (which is probably the most common use case), you would get AD/DA, but this has been proven to be transparent even when doing 7-8 conversions in a row so this is not a practical problem with modern DACs (if it ever was). Yes, MiniDSP SHD would be a good match to this system. Currently our prototype setup is simply connected to a Yamaha WXC-50, and using manual room calibration through the built-in EQ in the speakers and subwoofers. Works like a charm. Many would probably opt for a more expensive streamer, but even this setup works extremely well, even for its total price.

WISA/Wireless: We will not support wireless out of the box.


Hope this clears up some of your questions, please do not hesitate to follow-up.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Also note that the fact that this setup sounds like big, expensive floorstanders isn't just an impression of the speakers, it also says something about the quality of the subwoofers.

The choice of a coax, the choice of a 2.5-way (3.5-way) and the explicit high crossover allowing plenty of capacity in the lower midrange, and the choice of drivers, all providing this setup with way higher sensitivity (around 95dB as opposed to 85-88dB in a typical bookshelf speakers), are all specific design choices geared toward providing a dynamic experience that we think is relatively unique given both the visual and physical size of this setup.

It simply sounds effortless at any practical SPL.

 

[Mnyb]

A lot of questions here, but I will try to answer them one at a time.

Price for our existing subwoofers: We would argue that the sound quality is higher than a lot of the competition due to both superior drivers, superior amplifiers and DSP, as well as very well built cabinet. It would of course be up to the customer whether they are willing to pay for that. And if you compare with other subwoofers aiming for a similar market like the new KEF KC62 (which is cheaper but also relatively expensive), we also provide double the output even from our smallest subwoofer. This is of course also a matter of which market you are in. If you have 10,000USD speakers, you don't pair it with a 500USD subwoofer. I also understand that if you have 1,000USD speakers, you probably don't buy our subwoofers. That's perfectly fine.

Price for a package: This is yet to be determined exactly. But you're likely talking minimum ~8,000USD for a pair of these speakers combined with our smallest Inkognito subwoofer. We have the 10D coming up too, so a killer combination would be the SBS.1 combined with 2x 10D. That would set you back ~12,000USD. This is not cheap. It also does not sound cheap. We've had pretty competent people here to listen to our prototypes, and speakers like the B&W 800D and the Kef Blade 2 have been mentioned in discussions regarding the sound stage and overall impression. A reporter from a Norwegian hifi magazine has also been here. When discussing SBS.1 + one 10D (which is what we listened to), he simply could not come up with a pair of speakers within the price range that sounded anything like it. Also remember that you will not need a power amplifier (which would typically set you back several thousand USD in this price bracket), you could connect this directly to a streamer, and have a complete system.

Integrating with existing subwoofers: The speakers are "high-passed" out of the box, as they will have a -3dB point at 80-90hz. So yes you would be able to pair them with an existing subwoofer. If you don't have existing room calibration or crossover-capabilities in your amplifier, it will be even easier than with a "normal" speakers, since you can utilize your subwoofer at a larger part of the frequency range.

Signal path: There's a DSP both in the subwoofers and the speakers, and you have access to manual 9-band PEQ in both the subwoofer and in each individual speaker for room calibration. You would connect this like you would a normal sub, and a power amplifier. The subwoofers support High-level, RCA and XLR. The speakers support RCA, XLR and also Optical/Coaxial for digital input, but you may have some trouble finding streamers/preamps with variable level digital outputs. Yes, if you use analog inputs (which is probably the most common use case), you would get AD/DA, but this has been proven to be transparent even when doing 7-8 conversions in a row so this is not a practical problem with modern DACs (if it ever was). Yes, MiniDSP SHD would be a good match to this system. Currently our prototype setup is simply connected to a Yamaha WXC-50, and using manual room calibration through the built-in EQ in the speakers and subwoofers. Works like a charm. Many would probably opt for a more expensive streamer, but even this setup works extremely well, even for its total price.

WISA/Wireless: We will not support wireless out of the box.


Hope this clears up some of your questions, please do not hesitate to follow-up.

Yes just wanted to know how you where thinking .
Your have probably carefully considered how to design the product.

Theoretically I could use my existing pre/pro a MeridianG68J it's analog performance is such that an extra AD/DA with modern circuits is not a problem .

Personally I'm out to separate my HT from my music system so my next music system will be a 2.1 or 2.2 setup hence my comments on the mini-DSP SHD , its pretty much the only viable option unless you want reuse some HT amp as control .

I'm just a bit frustrated that 20 years after Meridian showed "the way" no one else offers a true digital path for multichannel hires down to the speaker XO. If i put in a DVDA disc into my current old player all signal processing DRC tone controls etc is digital for my 5.1 setup the signal becomes analog only when there is an amp that drives a particular driver in a speaker the DAC's are at the speaker level as they should be imho.

I can understand why you don't do this as you only controls the speaker part and it must works with what we have .
And I'm only some dude at a web forum thinking out loud and I'm not bashing your products For the price I just have high expectations .
At another price point I've just said "please take my money"

You compete directly with DD8C ? at the suggested pricing ?

Btw I have no doubt that in practice the acoustical design of Meridian Speakers are not up to Modern standards so I would not even consider them today . Your speakers probably just rolls over my old 5200DSP's but that feat they likely share with many other modern designs such as KEF or Revel

 

[sigbergaudio]

Yes just wanted to know how you where thinking .

You compete directly with DD8C ? at the suggested pricing ?

Btw I have no doubt that in practice the acoustical design of Meridian Speakers are not up to Modern standards so I would not even consider them today . Your speakers probably just rolls over my old 5200DSP's but that feat they likely share with many other modern designs such as KEF or Revel

I'm sure there will be some customer segment overlap, yes. We have a customer (still waiting patiently as we are unfortunately struggling with manufacturing delays) who has purchased two Inkognito 12 subwoofers despite the fact that he actually does have the DD8C. At that point I would of course argue that he could just as well have chosen the SBS.1 for a cheaper total package (if it had existed at the time).

I guess you could say that we and DutchDutch are trying to solve the same problem, but with a different angle. The obvious advantage with DD8C is that you don't need separate subs. If you can live with the compromise that follows (mainly limited SPL and possibly uneven low end frequency response due to the fact that you don't have a subwoofer to position elsewhere in the room for more even response) I will happily admit that the DD8C is a pretty good choice in speakers. Which speaker sounds the best is something I will leave up to the customers to decide, and I also can't comment since I have never personally heard the DD8C.

KEF and Revel make great speakers, but those aren't free either.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Stumbled over an overlay of the in-room frequency response of both the Dutch Dutch 8C and The Kii Three from 1khz-20khz in the DD8C review thread, so I was curious to see how the SBS.1 tracked them. The SBS.1 is in blue.

Less energy in the very top end from 15khz up, which we are still experimenting with (this can easily be adjusted), but otherwise interestingly similar.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Two pairs of pre-production models are now about a week away, just need some paint. We will do one pair in white and one in black.

 

[HooStat]

In that last picture, where there are wooden pieces in place of drivers -- why is that? Do they get shipped elsewhere for the drivers to be added? Just curious.

 

[sigbergaudio]

In that last picture, where there are wooden pieces in place of drivers -- why is that? Do they get shipped elsewhere for the drivers to be added? Just curious.

It's simply for an efficient paint job. The cabinets can now be hung from wires from those hooks in those driver inserts, and painted on all sides in one go. Complete assembly (drivers and amps) and testing is done in-house.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

So what's the target cost?

 

[sigbergaudio]

So what's the target cost?

Subject to change, but we're hoping to retail it at 44990NOK including Norwegian VAT. For foreign sales, VAT will be deducted so then you're down to 35992NOK, which is around 4250USD with the current exchange rate.

This includes worldwide shipping, but does not include your local import taxes/VAT.

 

[Honken]

I feel a bit silly for asking, but is that per speaker or for a pair?

 

[sigbergaudio]

I feel a bit silly for asking, but is that per speaker or for a pair?

Thank you for helping me clarify, I should have specified that. It's per pair.

 

[Honken]

Ah, if the final price lands somewhere in that region I'm very interested. Best of luck on getting the design finalized!

 

[sigbergaudio]

Ah, if the final price lands somewhere in that region I'm very interested. Best of luck on getting the design finalized!

Thank you! Hope to share pictures of completed pre-production models in a couple of weeks time, and presales will hopefully start not to long after Easter.

 

[dc655321]

Stumbled over an overlay of the in-room frequency response of both the Dutch Dutch 8C and The Kii Three from 1khz-20khz in the DD8C review thread, so I was curious to see how the SBS.1 tracked them. The SBS.1 is in blue.

Less energy in the very top end from 15khz up, which we are still experimenting with (this can easily be adjusted), but otherwise interestingly similar.

View attachment 117947

Your product looks nice, but I think a more apt point of reference would be the Kef R3. Obviously the on-board electronics is a key difference.

Comparing to kii or the 8c is a bridge too far. Provide a 4pi view of your radiation field if you want to throw your hat in that ring...

 

[sigbergaudio]

Your product looks nice, but I think a more apt point of reference would be the Kef R3. Obviously the on-board electronics is a key difference.

Comparing to kii or the 8c is a bridge too far. Provide a 4pi view of your radiation field if you want to throw your hat in that ring...

More extensive measurements will be shared in due time. From a price perspective they're obviously a lot closer to the Dutch or Kii than the R3, since you need at least one sub in addition to the speakers themselves.

Also, the response alone obviously isn't enough to make any meaningful comparison or imply they're as good, I was just curious to compare their tonal balance to how we've tuned the SBS.1. Probably a good sign that they are similar.

 

[DNM]

We have a customer (still waiting patiently as we are unfortunately struggling with manufacturing delays) who has purchased two Inkognito 12 subwoofers despite the fact that he actually does have the DD8C. At that point I would of course argue that he could just as well have chosen the SBS.1 for a cheaper total package (if it had existed at the time).

Ha, I guess that'll be me who's waiting for his subs!

You have indeed been busy Mr Sigberg. I like your concept but still wondering how you can accomplish precise phase alignment between subs and mains out of the box without adjusting for differences in physical distance when they are placed in the clients room?

In my living room, the best location for the main speakers is a bad location for low bass performance, hence why I think crossing mains to subs placed against the front wall is more optimal than full range speakers in my case. This may not be the case for everyone of course.

I would personally want the ability to make all the adjustments I'm able to make in the MiniDSP SHD I use. Maybe thats possible in the Hypex DSP but probably not that user friendly. But then again, those like me willing to go through the drudgery of taking lots of measurements in an effort to achieving audio nirvana is a niche market.

Your SBS.1's aren't cardoid with boundary filters so wont have the placement flexibility of the 8c's or Kii's and sub positioning may be more critical than with those speakers. Whilst peeps on ASR might see the benefits and potential of your approach, will the average punter be able to optimise them in their room as easily as Kii's or 8c's, not to mention establishing a brand value to command the price tag?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Ha, I guess that'll be me who's waiting for his subs!

You have indeed been busy Mr Sigberg. I like your concept but still wondering how you can accomplish precise phase alignment between subs and mains out of the box without adjusting for differences in physical distance when they are placed in the clients room?

In my living room, the best location for the main speakers is a bad location for low bass performance, hence why I think crossing mains to subs placed against the front wall is more optimal than full range speakers in my case. This may not be the case for everyone of course.

I would personally want the ability to make all the adjustments I'm able to make in the MiniDSP SHD I use. Maybe thats possible in the Hypex DSP but probably not that user friendly. But then again, those like me willing to go through the drudgery of taking lots of measurements in an effort to achieving audio nirvana is a niche market.

Your SBS.1's aren't cardoid with boundary filters so wont have the placement flexibility of the 8c's or Kii's and sub positioning may be more critical than with those speakers. Whilst peeps on ASR might see the benefits and potential of your approach, will the average punter be able to optimise them in their room as easily as Kii's or 8c's, not to mention establishing a brand value to command the price tag?

It wil indeed not be possible to guarantee precise phase alignment between subs and mains. The speakers themselves are in phase across the internal crossovers, and the configuration and design of the subwoofers is such that a good integration is likely even without external DSP capabilities. However, in general you will need an amp/preamp/processor with DSP capability to get optimal results in a system that includes one or several subwoofers. So your MiniDSP SHD would be a good choice for a setup like this as well. In summary it will be easier, not more difficult to get a good sub integration with this setup than most others.

Not sure whether the cardioid capabilities of the 8c/Kii will help at the lowest frequencies with regards to subwoofer integration. Either way, these speakers are less than half the price of Kii/8c, so kii/8c + subs will set you back another 4-5,000USD. From that perspective I suspect you will find this setup reasonably priced for its performance.

As an alternative you can get SBS.1 + two Inkognito 12s for slightly less than the 8C cost alone, or SBS.1 + one 10D for significantly less. Both alternatives will give you way more bass capacity, and cleaner SPLs in the entire frequency range.