Sigberg Audio Saranna (fullrange, cardioid active floorstander) development thread

[sigbergaudio]

I am very much interested-in and impressed-by your on-going fine tuning of wonderful Saranna!

Your "natural and right" subjective feeling/impression can be well understood and agreed at least by myself, and I am very much looking forward to seeing your Fq-SPL all over through 20 Hz to 20 kHz in a typical listening room acoustics; do you also subjectively prefer slightly higher gain in 50 Hz - 150 Hz zone at your listening position?

Just for my personal curiosity, I carefully compare your above Fq-SPL curve vs. my present/latest Fq-SPL of multichannel active system (mine is at listening position which is 3.3 m away from the surface of the SP system, L to R is 2 m, slightly off-axis, and includes room/furniture acoustic modes, ref. here #931 on my project thread).

Spoiler

View attachment 428239

View attachment 428240

Another point is that the correct gain in the bass is very difficult to get "perfect" out of the box for a loudspeaker as well, as it interacts so much with the room. In one of my rooms I have several dB difference below 100hz just between the left and right speaker, because one of the speakers is near a corner. So it's basically impossible.

That's one of the huge benefits of an active system like this, that this can be adjusted on the fly by the consumer.

 

[dualazmak]

Another point is that the correct gain in the bass is very difficult to get "perfect" out of the box for a loudspeaker as well, as it interacts so much with the room. In one of my rooms I have several dB difference below 100hz just between the left and right speaker, because one of the speakers is near a corner. So it's basically impossible.

That's one of the huge benefits of an active system like this, that this can be adjusted on the fly by the consumer.

Yes, I fully agree with you, and well understand your points as well as benefits/advantages of Saranna.
These three posts under the below spoiler cover would be also of your (our) reference, I assume, especially for "local" (individual listening room) optimal adjustments of low-Fq sound.

Spoiler

- Not only the precision (0.1 msec level) time alignment over all the SP drivers but also SP facing directions and sound-deadening space behind the SPs plus behind our listening position would be critically important for effective (perfect?) disappearance of speakers: #687

- Reproduction and listening/hearing/feeling sensations to 16 Hz (organ) sound with my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active stereo audio system having big-heavy active L&R sub-woofers: #782

- A nice smooth-jazz album for bass (low Fq) and higher Fq tonality check and tuning: #63(remote thread)

I myself also have been implementing very similar "on-the-fly" Fq-SPL adjustment in digital domain plus analog domain in my PC-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully active audio system (ref. here #931 on my project thread for the latest setup); I can even apply time-alignment-group-delay tunings on the fly if needed. I wrote there and here as follows under the below spoiler cover including ""my stance (policy) at least, is that we are encouraged to utilize the "best combination" of "DSP configuration in digital domain" and "analog domain tone controls using HiFi-grade preamplifiers and/or integrated amplifiers"".

Spoiler

Here in this post, please let me emphasize again about the pros and merits of relative gain (i.e. tone) control not only in digital domain but also in analog domain using pre-amplifiers or integrated-amplifiers (in my setup). I recently wrote again in my post #56 on a remote thread like these;
Yes, as for safe and flexible tone controls (or I can say "relative gain controls among the multiple SP drivers"), my stance (policy) at least, is that we are encouraged to utilize the "best combination" of "DSP configuration in digital domain" and "analog domain tone controls using HiFi-grade preamplifiers and/or integrated amplifiers".

We need to note (and to respect for) that analog domain tone controls (relative gain controls among the multiple SP drivers) give no effect nor influence at all on the upstream DSP configuration (XO/EQ/Gain/Phase/Polarity/Group-Delay). I believe that this is a great merit of flexible tone controls in analog domain. We know well, on the other hand, in case if we would like to do the "tone/gain controls" only within DSP configurations, such DSP gain controls always affect more-or-less on "XO" "EQ" "phase" and "delay" of the DSP settings which will leads you to possible endless DSP tuning spirals every time; within DSP configurations, XO EQ Gain Phase and Delay are always not independent with each other, but they are always interdependent/on-interaction.

Just for your possible reference, my DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier active system has flexible and safe analog level on-the-fly relative gain controls (in addition to upstream on-the-fly DSP gain controls) for L&R subwoofers, woofers, midrange-squawkers, tweeters, and super-tweeters, all independently and remotely. My post here shows you a typical example case for such safe and flexible on-the-fly analog-level tone controls. This my post (as well as this post) would be also of your interest.

Of course, I know well that I (we) can also perform such relative gain control using DAC8PRO’s 8-channel output gain controllers. I do not like, however, to change the DAC8PRO’s output levels frequently on-the-fly (while listening to music) due to safety and inconvenience concerns; I like to keep DAC8PRO’s analog out gain level always at constant -4 dB which should remain to be usually “untouchable” in my case.

One of the very unique aspects/features of my multichannel audio rig is that I fully utilize four HiFi-grade “integrated amplifiers” plus L&R active subwoofers, each of them have its own gain (volume) controller for safe and flexible relative gain (tone) control in analog domain even on-the-fly i.e. while listening to music.

In this perspective, my posts #438 and #643 should also give you better understandings. Furthermore, my posts #317(remote thread), #313(remote thread) would be also of your reference and interest.

I believe that we can easily achieve such very much flexible Fq-SPL plus group-delay (time-alignment) adjustments in our actual listening environments (room +furniture acoustic modes) using upstream digital domain DSP controls within PC or Mac feeding the DSP-ed digital signals into your wonderful Saranna!

 

[MKR]

Another point is that the correct gain in the bass is very difficult to get "perfect" out of the box for a loudspeaker as well, as it interacts so much with the room. In one of my rooms I have several dB difference below 100hz just between the left and right speaker, because one of the speakers is near a corner. So it's basically impossible.

That's one of the huge benefits of an active system like this, that this can be adjusted on the fly by the consumer.

Design lookin good! I assume you are referring to the Hypex DSP SW for these “on the fly” adjustments? I love Hypex, but darn their SW is clunky. Also wish they had it released on Mac, but sadly only Windows.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Design lookin good! I assume you are referring to the Hypex DSP SW for these “on the fly” adjustments? I love Hypex, but darn their SW is clunky. Also wish they had it released on Mac, but sadly only Windows.

Well, in part. There will be predefined presets that will tilt the bass +2dB or -2dB compared to the default, so that can be done by just pressing a button on the back. If you want more advanced you need to connect with a laptop, but then not using the designer but the EQ feature, that is pretty easy to use. But yes, it will not win usability awards. And yes, I also wish it had mac support.

 

[MKR]

Well, in part. There will be predefined presets that will tilt the bass +2dB or -2dB compared to the default, so that can be done by just pressing a button on the back. If you want more advanced you need to connect with a laptop, but then not using the designer but the EQ feature, that is pretty easy to use. But yes, it will not win usability awards. And yes, I also wish it had mac support.

Ah, got it, you are using the preset feature for quick changes, that makes more sense.

 

[sigbergaudio]

The cat is out of the bag regarding both the pre-sale and pricing.

The regular price for Saranna will be 249,995 NOK per pair (~21 500EUR), including VAT and shipping to all the countries we currently ship to.

We are running a limited pre-sale from March 18th to May 1st with a 10% discount, bringing the price down to 224,995 NOK (~19 300 EUR).

After May 1st, sales will temporarily close until Saranna is in stock and pre-orders have been shipped. Hopefully that will happen in June, with possible delays until August.

Note: EUR prices is based on current NOK-EUR exchange rates and will fluctuate with the exhange rate.

 

[Marin]

The cat is out of the bag regarding both the pre-sale and pricing.

The regular price for Saranna will be 249,995 NOK per pair (~21 500EUR), including VAT and shipping to all the countries we currently ship to.

We are running a limited pre-sale from March 18th to May 1st with a 10% discount, bringing the price down to 224,995 NOK (~19 300 EUR).

After May 1st, sales will temporarily close until Saranna is in stock and pre-orders have been shipped. Hopefully that will happen in June, with possible delays until August.

Note: EUR prices is based on current NOK-EUR exchange rates and will fluctuate with the exhange rate.


View attachment 428924

The cat is out of the bag regarding both the pre-sale and pricing.

The regular price for Saranna will be 249,995 NOK per pair (~21 500EUR), including VAT and shipping to all the countries we currently ship to.

We are running a limited pre-sale from March 18th to May 1st with a 10% discount, bringing the price down to 224,995 NOK (~19 300 EUR).

After May 1st, sales will temporarily close until Saranna is in stock and pre-orders have been shipped. Hopefully that will happen in June, with possible delays until August.

Note: EUR prices is based on current NOK-EUR exchange rates and will fluctuate with the exhange rate.


View attachment 428924

Will I experience that last bit of that final bit of control, heft, and air with these one.
This could be "end game"
But I em still confused about cardiod disagn in home, house application near boudries you lose that efect right until the "shredder boarder"?

 

[sigbergaudio]

Will I experience that last bit of that final bit of control, heft, and air with these one.
This could be "end game"
But I em still confused about cardiod disagn in home, house application near boudries you lose that efect right until the "shredder boarder"?

Hi Marin, thank you for your interest in the Saranna!

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are asking here. Is the first sentence a question?
Cardioid does not lose its effect despite being near boundaries.
I am not sure what "shredder boarder" means?

If you can please try to clarify or rephrase, I will attempt to answer your question!

 

[Thomas Savage]

Could be but More likely Schroeder frequency

 

[sigbergaudio]

@Marin The frequency where the cardioid is active has not been measured exactly on the latest version of the Saranna cabinet, but you can expect to see reduced radiation to the side and rear of the speaker from around 150-200hz and essentially all the way up.

Below are graphs showing the reduction in energy compared to a comparably sized traditional loudspeaker for the Sigberg Audio Manta (which is also cardioid). You will see something similar with the Saranna, but starting later (150-200hz on the Saranna vs 80-100hz on the Manta)

First at 90 degrees angle:

And 180 degrees angle:

 

[Marin]

Hoću li iskusiti posljednji djelić tog posljednjeg djelića kontrole, težine i zraka s ovim.
Ovo bi mogao biti "kraj igre"
Ali još uvijek sam zbunjen oko disagniranja kardiodioda kod kuće, kućne primjene u blizini granica, gubite taj učinak sve do "granice drobilice"?

Sorry for my bad English

Could be but More likely Schroeder frequency View attachment 429128

Yes thanks for correction.

 

[Marin]

@Marin The frequency where the cardioid is active has not been measured exactly on the latest version of the Saranna cabinet, but you can expect to see reduced radiation to the side and rear of the speaker from around 150-200hz and essentially all the way up.

Below are graphs showing the reduction in energy compared to a comparably sized traditional loudspeaker for the Sigberg Audio Manta (which is also cardioid). You will see something similar with the Saranna, but starting later (150-200hz on the Saranna vs 80-100hz on the Manta)

First at 90 degrees angle:
View attachment 429130


And 180 degrees angle:
View attachment 429131

Thanks for the reply and clarification.
The first part of the question was a kind of fishing and prank on the reviewers.
Good on you for not falling for it.
As for the cardioid design and how it starts working, that will probably be determined by the distance from the walls, right?
One more question and I won't be mad if you don't answer.
How did you arrive at the price of 21.000 with cheap(MDF),no wood finish,good driver's but nothing special, don't know about crossover parts.
You don't have to go into detail, but I'd like to see where all that money goes.
Where is the production?
And thanks for the reply.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Thanks for the reply and clarification.
The first part of the question was a kind of fishing and prank on the reviewers.
Good on you for not falling for it.
As for the cardioid design and how it starts working, that will probably be determined by the distance from the walls, right?
One more question and I won't be mad if you don't answer.
How did you arrive at the price of 21.000 with cheap(MDF),no wood finish,good driver's but nothing special, don't know about crossover parts.
You don't have to go into detail, but I'd like to see where all that money goes.
Where is the production?
And thanks for the reply.

It is fair to be sceptical of an expensive product. Personally I think the Saranna easily competes with speakers twice the price. I will try to explain to the best of my ability.

Cardioid:
A common misconception about cardioid is that it cancels out the reflections from the wall, but that is not what happens. It is the soundwaves that comes from the drivers which are canceled / shaped by the out of phase sound emitting from the side ports. This means the sound never arrives at the wall in the first place. Less sound is sent from the speakers in the side and rear direction. This means it is effective no matter the distance to the walls.

Cost:
Why do you assume we use cheap MDF? It is router grade MDF that is closer to HDF in density. Or do you mean that MDF is a cheap material? It is another common misconception that the main reason for cost on a product is the material or component cost. Components is of course a significant cost, as a random example, you can purchase 12" subwoofers in the store that cost less than the 12" driver alone of our subwoofers cost. A driver is not just a driver.

Beyond that, there are a lot of other things that contribute to the cost as well. I can assure you that our margins are lower than what is typical in the industry. I can list a few of the things that make up running a business, in no particular order, where cost of materials/components is but one:

1. Packaging
2. Shipping to customer
3. Import taxes and VAT (we pay those for the customer)
4. Research and development (simulation, CAD drawings, building prototypes, sourcing components, testing/listening, measurements, etc. Develoment of the Saranna started November 2023)
5. Returns, warranties, shipping damages
6. Rent / Facilities / Storage
7. Marketing and advertising
8. Taxes
9. Paying for working hours/staff, be it employees or consultants
10. Components and materials
11. Profit
12. etc...

Wood finish:
You say there is no wood finish, but on the contrary we use real composite wood veneer from Italian Alpi.

Crossover components:
You ask about crossover components. There are no crossover components as the speakers are active. Which means you have three Hypex amplifier modules in each speaker. Purchasing a passive alternative and then purchasing external power amplifiers is not free either.

Where is production:

1. All design and development work is in Norway.
2. The speakers are assembled and tested (every speaker is measured and pair matched within +/1dB from 100-10,000hz) in Norway.
3. The speakers are stored in and shipped from Norway.
4. The coaxial driver is a custom version of an OEM model from Sica and is made in Italy
5. The bass drivers are from Wavecor, which has Danish owners but do production in China
6. The cabinets are built and painted/veneered to the highest standard in Estonia
7. The veneer is from Italy
8. The amplifiers / DSP modules are from Hypex which is based in the Netherlands, but do manufacturing in their own facility in Malaysia.
9. The custom dampening feet are made in Norway by Egeland acoustics

I hope this go some way to answer your questions.

 

[Marin]

Pošteno je biti skeptičan prema skupom proizvodu. Osobno mislim da se Saranna lako natječe sa dvostruko skupljim zvučnicima. Pokušat ću objasniti najbolje što mogu.

kardioid:
Uobičajena zabluda o kardioidu je da poništava refleksije od zida, ali to nije ono što se događa. Zvučni valovi koji dolaze iz drajvera su poništeni/oblikovani izvanfaznim zvukom koji emitira bočne otvore. To znači da zvuk uopće ne dolazi do zida. Manje zvuka se šalje iz zvučnika u bočnom i stražnjem smjeru. To znači da je učinkovit bez obzira na udaljenost od zidova.

Cijena:
Zašto pretpostavljate da koristimo jeftini MDF? Radi se o MDF-u za glodanje koji je po gustoći bliži HDF-u. Ili misliš da je MDF jeftin materijal? Još je jedna uobičajena zabluda da je glavni razlog troška proizvoda trošak materijala ili komponente. Komponente su naravno značajan trošak, kao nasumični primjer, možete kupiti subwoofere od 12" u trgovini koji koštaju manje od cijene samog drajvera od 12" od naših subwoofera. Vozač nije samo vozač.

Osim toga, postoji mnogo drugih stvari koje također doprinose trošku. Uvjeravam vas da su naše marže niže od uobičajenih u industriji. Mogu navesti nekoliko stvari koje čine vođenje posla, bez posebnog redoslijeda, gdje je cijena materijala/komponenti samo jedna:

1. Pakiranje
2. Dostava kupcu
3. Uvozne takse i PDV (mi ih plaćamo za kupca)
4. Istraživanje i razvoj (simulacija, CAD crteži, izrada prototipova, nabava komponenti, testiranje/slušanje, mjerenja itd. Razvoj Saranne započeo je u studenom 2023.)
5. Povrati, jamstva, štete prilikom dostave
6. Najam / Objekti / Skladište
7. Marketing i oglašavanje
8. Porezi
9. Plaćanje radnih sati/osoblja, bilo zaposlenika ili konzultanata
10. Komponente i materijali
11. Dobit
12. itd...

Završna obrada drveta:
Kažete da nema drvene završne obrade, ali naprotiv, koristimo pravi kompozitni drveni furnir iz talijanskog Alpija.

Komponente križanja:
Pitate o komponentama skretnice. Nema komponenti skretnice jer su zvučnici aktivni. Što znači da imate tri Hypex modula pojačala u svakom zvučniku. Kupnja pasivne alternative i zatim kupnja vanjskih pojačala također nije besplatna.

Gdje je proizvodnja:

1. Sav rad na dizajnu i razvoju odvija se u Norveškoj.
2. Zvučnici se sastavljaju i testiraju (svaki zvučnik se mjeri i spaja par unutar +/1dB od 100-10,000 Hz) u Norveškoj.
3. Zvučnici su uskladišteni i otpremljeni iz Norveške.
4. Koaksijalni drajver prilagođena je verzija OEM modela tvrtke Sica i proizvodi se u Italiji
5. Basovi su iz Wavecora, koji ima danske vlasnike, ali proizvodi u Kini
6. Ormari su izrađeni i obojani/furnirani prema najvišim standardima u Estoniji
7. Furnir je iz Italije
8. Pojačala/DSP moduli su iz Hypexa sa sjedištem u Nizozemskoj, ali proizvode u vlastitom pogonu u Maleziji.
9. Noge za prigušivanje po narudžbi proizvodi Egeland acoustics u Norveškoj

Nadam se da će ovo donekle odgovoriti na vaša pitanja.

Hvala na odgovoru

It is fair to be sceptical of an expensive product. Personally I think the Saranna easily competes with speakers twice the price. I will try to explain to the best of my ability.

Cardioid:
A common misconception about cardioid is that it cancels out the reflections from the wall, but that is not what happens. It is the soundwaves that comes from the drivers which are canceled / shaped by the out of phase sound emitting from the side ports. This means the sound never arrives at the wall in the first place. Less sound is sent from the speakers in the side and rear direction. This means it is effective no matter the distance to the walls.

Cost:
Why do you assume we use cheap MDF? It is router grade MDF that is closer to HDF in density. Or do you mean that MDF is a cheap material? It is another common misconception that the main reason for cost on a product is the material or component cost. Components is of course a significant cost, as a random example, you can purchase 12" subwoofers in the store that cost less than the 12" driver alone of our subwoofers cost. A driver is not just a driver.

Beyond that, there is a lot of other things that contribute to the cost as well. I can assure you that our margins are lower than what is typical in the industry. I can list a few of the things that make up running a business, in no particular order, where cost of materials/components is but one:

1. Packaging
2. Shipping to customer
3. Import taxes and VAT (we pay those for the customer)
4. Research and development (simulation, CAD drawings, building prototypes, sourcing components, testing/listening, measurements, etc. Develoment of the Saranna started November 2023)
5. Returns, warranties, shipping damages
6. Rent / Facilities / Storage
7. Marketing and advertising
8. Taxes
9. Paying for working hours/staff, be it employees or consultants
10. Components and materials
11. Profit
12. etc...

Wood finish:
You say there is no wood finish, but on the contrary we use real composite wood veneer from Italian Alpi.

Crossover components:
You ask about crossover components. There are no crossover components as the speakers are active. Which means you have three Hypex amplifier modules in each speaker. Purchasing a passive alternative and then purchasing external power amplifiers is not free either.

Where is production:

1. All design and development work is in Norway.
2. The speakers are assembled and tested (every speaker is measured and pair matched within +/1dB from 100-10,000hz) in Norway.
3. The speakers are stored in and shipped from Norway.
4. The coaxial driver is a custom version of an OEM model from Sica and is made in Italy
5. The bass drivers are from Wavecor, which has Danish owners but do production in China
6. The cabinets are built and painted/veneered to the highest standard in Estonia
7. The veneer is from Italy
8. The amplifiers / DSP modules are from Hypex which is based in the Netherlands, but do manufacturing in their own facility in Malaysia.
9. The custom dampening feet are made in Norway by Egeland acoustics

I hope this go some way to answer your questions.

Thanks for the reply.
So you have the veneer option, is there an additional charge?
I've only seen the white model which is nicely painted and I like the dark ribs.
Let's be honest, MDF is a cheap material. And it is inferior in terms of vibration reduction , with laminate structure, aluminum, carbon fiber.....
Regarding MDF and quality, I believe that the best options are used in speaker production, but the best MDF is still worse than HDF of the same quality.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Hvala na odgovoru

Thanks for the reply.
So you have the veneer option, is there an additional charge?
I saw the white model and wasn't impressed with the look.
Let's be honest, MDF is a cheap material. And it is inferior in terms of vibration reduction , with laminate structure, aluminum, carbon fiber.....
Regarding MDF and quality, I believe that the best options are used in speaker production, but the best MDF is still worse than HDF of the same quality.

Are you sure you are looking at the right speaker? There are two options, both have both paint and veneer, they are the same price. A white model of this speaker has not been built or presented yet, so you could not have seen that anywhere.

This is option one:

This is option two:

A MDF cabinet properly built is perfectly adequate with regards to vibration reduction. It is also strange to request esoteric materials (for no practical purpose) and at the same time complain about the price. I would happily provide you with a carbon fiber cabinet, except it will be way more expensive, and it goes against our principles:

 

[Marin]

Jeste li sigurni da gledate pravog zvučnika? Postoje dvije opcije, obje imaju i boju i furnir, iste su cijene. Bijeli model ovog zvučnika još nije napravljen niti predstavljen, tako da to niste mogli nigdje vidjeti.

Ovo je opcija jedan:
View attachment 429296

Ovo je opcija dva:
View attachment 429297


Ispravno izrađen MDF ormar savršeno je prikladan u pogledu smanjenja vibracija. Također je čudno tražiti ezoterične materijale (bez praktične svrhe) i istovremeno se žaliti na cijenu. Rado bih vam dao ormarić od ugljičnih vlakana, ali će biti mnogo skuplji i protivi se našim načelima:
View attachment 429298

I looked at it and I can tell you that it looks nice with dark ribs.
You've really helped me make a purchasing decision.
Thank you and good luck!

 

[sigbergaudio]

@Marin It is understandable that you are not impressed, as it is a crude, early drawing that looks nothing like the finished speaker. This is a development thread, not a product presentation thread. The design has changed many times since that drawing was presented.

If you are at all interested in this product, please take the care to investigate before making claims or assumptions about it. If you are not interested and just out to troll, please visit a different thread.

 

[Marin]

@Marin Razumljivo je da niste impresionirani, budući da se radi o sirovom, ranom crtežu koji nimalo ne sliči gotovom zvučniku. Ovo je razvojna nit, a ne prezentacija proizvoda. Dizajn se mnogo puta promijenio otkad je taj crtež predstavljen.

Ako ste ikako zainteresirani za ovaj proizvod, dobro ga istražite prije nego što iznosite tvrdnje ili pretpostavke o njemu. Ako niste zainteresirani i samo želite trolati, posjetite drugu temu.

I'm sorry you came to this conclusion.

The truth is, I don't have that kind of money

But this isn't a store, and we're discussing and learning about speaker design.

 

[sigbergaudio]

I'm sorry you came to this conclusion.

The truth is, I don't have that kind of money

But this isn't a store, and we're discussing and learning about speaker design.

I haven't come to any conclusion.

I am aware that this isn't a store. You have 26 pages in this thread where you have the opportuntiy to learn about speaker design.

We also have a product page for this speaker: https://www.sigbergaudio.com/products/saranna

And we have an article about background and design choices: https://www.sigbergaudio.com/blogs/news/designing-an-active-floorstander-the-saranna

Finally there are similar threads about our other products: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/.../sigberg-audio-asr-development-threads.49883/

If you are interested in learning, I highly encourage you to dive in.

 

[sigbergaudio]

A look inside, for those who are curious. Note that this a development model, not the finalized model for production. So all details are not present / necessarily 100% accurate.