Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Wombat]

"Their problem or your problem"? Don't spend much time on it if there is routine reactive push-back.

 

[JJB70]

I think this whole issue stems from people trying to imagine that digital is the same as analogue. It isn't. But people like tweaking things and in the world of vinyl different hardware did sound different and tweaking gear had a purpose. If people really want to dive into a world of variable performance where they can play with stuff then they should be into vinyl. If people just want something that allows them to enjoy music replayed at the highest quality and which doesn't even cost much then stick with digital.

 

[TLEDDY]

“It has since long been established that people can hear differences even when there are none.”

TRVTH

 

[TLEDDY]

I have long noticed that, among many of my audiophile friends, the perceived improvement in sound quality is directly proportional To the amount of money they spent on the product.

“It has since long been established that people can hear differences even when there are none.”

TRVTH

 

[Frank Dernie]

I have long noticed that, among many of my audiophile friends, the perceived improvement in sound quality is directly proportional To the amount of money they spent on the product.

Pretty well a standard placebo effect then.

 

[FrantzM]

I think this whole issue stems from people trying to imagine that digital is the same as analogue. It isn't. But people like tweaking things and in the world of vinyl different hardware did sound different and tweaking gear had a purpose. If people really want to dive into a world of variable performance where they can play with stuff then they should be into vinyl. If people just want something that allows them to enjoy music replayed at the highest quality and which doesn't even cost much then stick with digital.

True !!

However ...

The differences people claim to hear in Analogue, disappear under controlled and blind tests. Not the scientific case of DBT correctly conducted. Just matching the levels to an achievable .5 dB @ 1 KHz and removing the knowledge of the DUT, will confuse most golden eared audiophiles. Knowledge removed tests will transform the :Night and Day" differences into ... "well! Not sure", hesitations and wild guesses. It won't take long before the usual excuses of: fatigue, unfamiliar systems and rooms, long terms tests come to the front then ... I am talking from experience.

A very easy test. Take a CD known for its great recording and dynamic range , say the Reference Recordings Tutti Sampler. convert it to mp3 , 256 Kb/s .. Burn these files as a CD Audio , playable on a CDP. Try it with some audiophiles, concealing the provenance....

 

[IndividualWay7]

I have long noticed that, among many of my audiophile friends, the perceived improvement in sound quality is directly proportional To the amount of money they spent on the product.

I've had some get offended that there no gains and even proof that 5% even real. Oluv did a video were he liked the ER*SE, HD600, HE4XX with EQ over the £1600 HD800S.

 

[solderdude]

That's just his preference and not necessarily a reference.

 

[IndividualWay7]

That's just his preference and not necessarily a reference.

His reference is the HD600 and Etymotic ER4XR/ER2SE which in few videos he admitted.

 

[solderdude]

You don't get the point... its just a preference... HIS preference is just that and not a reference.
ALL headphones sound differently and all people have preferences.

 

[captain paranoia]

It's harder to do blind tests on headphones and earphones...

 

[jsrtheta]

I think this whole issue stems from people trying to imagine that digital is the same as analogue. It isn't. But people like tweaking things and in the world of vinyl different hardware did sound different and tweaking gear had a purpose. If people really want to dive into a world of variable performance where they can play with stuff then they should be into vinyl. If people just want something that allows them to enjoy music replayed at the highest quality and which doesn't even cost much then stick with digital.

Very true. The desire to justify this led to the treatment of CD transports as analogous to turntables, using the same analytic approaches and refusing to acknowledge that none of it was how digital works. As someone who bought into the idea of the superiority of belt-driven CD transports, I sadly know whereof I speak.

 

[Wes]

Forgive me if I missed some of the posts in the last 26 pages but...

DACs show a wide range on the SINEAD (THD) measurement spectrum - so is one in the blue range really undetectably different (properly done listening test; dbl-blind, levels matched, etc.) from one at the lowest end (red?) - is that right?

 

[cjf]

Forgive me if I missed some of the posts in the last 26 pages but...

DACs show a wide range on the SINEAD (THD) measurement spectrum - so is one in the blue range really undetectably different (properly done listening test; dbl-blind, levels matched, etc.) from one at the lowest end (red?) - is that right?

Well many here will have you believe that is true but I think it comes down to the kit one uses to make such judgements.

Here is one example that even Helen Keller would have a hard time arguing that differences indeed exist. Benchmark DAC3 VS the following alternatives: Benchmark DAC1, Meitner MA1, Ayre QB9, Yamaha CD Player, Audio Fidelity v90 to name just a few examples.

If one is making these comparisons using $200DIY loudspeakers and DIY everything else in the chain because they are living in a bubble that their build skills of said gear are so great that its unimaginable to them that something better could possibly exist outside their bubble then it all makes perfect sense.

Ignorance is bliss but hey, whatever it takes to blow your hair back and keep you moving forward is all that matters in the end.

 

[Wombat]

Well many here will have you believe that is true but I think it comes down to the kit one uses to make such judgements.

Here is one example that even Helen Keller would have a hard time arguing that differences indeed exist. Benchmark DAC3 VS the following alternatives: Benchmark DAC1, Meitner MA1, Ayre QB9, Yamaha CD Player, Audio Fidelity v90 to name just a few examples.

If one is making these comparisons using $200DIY loudspeakers and DIY everything else in the chain because they are living in a bubble that their build skills of said gear are so great that its unimaginable to them that something better could possibly exist outside their bubble then it all makes perfect sense.

Ignorance is bliss but hey, whatever it takes to blow your hair back and keep you moving forward is all that matters in the end.

Are you attributing the differences to the digital components in the circuits?

 

[cjf]

Thats certainly one way to go about it. Comparing hard numbers using published specs of each device but the reality is that in doing so you are no different than say a surgeon who learned his/her trade by only reading the books instead of one who read the books and did the cutting.

In my case, I've seen the specs and actually listened to the outcome in the real world using all these devices. I learned much more by listening then by just seeing the specs and making assumptions of what the outcome "should be". I don't really care if some choose to believe all DACs sound the same in the end as its their choice but I find it hard to imagine any person with a pulse could believe such things after making actual comparisons using gear with even half respectable resolution.

The argument of paying more for product XYZ thus this is why I think it must be better holds no baring here since the Benchmark DAC3 is far from the most expensive in the list I provided.

 

[jsrtheta]

Well many here will have you believe that is true but I think it comes down to the kit one uses to make such judgements.

Here is one example that even Helen Keller would have a hard time arguing that differences indeed exist. Benchmark DAC3 VS the following alternatives: Benchmark DAC1, Meitner MA1, Ayre QB9, Yamaha CD Player, Audio Fidelity v90 to name just a few examples.

If one is making these comparisons using $200DIY loudspeakers and DIY everything else in the chain because they are living in a bubble that their build skills of said gear are so great that its unimaginable to them that something better could possibly exist outside their bubble then it all makes perfect sense.

Ignorance is bliss but hey, whatever it takes to blow your hair back and keep you moving forward is all that matters in the end.

Really? You bring this here?

Even Helen Keller? I think you reveal far more than you think by proffering Helen Keller as some sort of paradigm. Of what? Being deaf? Are you really saying "Even a deaf person can't tell an audible difference?" Kind of like saying even a man with no legs would find the pole vault difficult. As a fellow Colorodoan, I am particularly embarrassed.

Beyond that, I am not sure how many people here use "$200DIY loudspeakers", though such would not prove anything, and in fact is on its face a logical fallacy ($200DIY speakers might be very good, given your lack of specifics). Otherwise, your examples are...what? Are you saying that the components you name are somehow distinguishable? There are means to prove your point. To date, though, there are no valid tests that I'm aware of that establish any such thing. They might be different, I don't know. But if you wish to make a point, support it. If you can't, then admit it.

Tell us the "kit" that you use that is so revealing. IOW, put up or shut up.

 

[jsrtheta]

Thats certainly one way to go about it. Comparing hard numbers using published specs of each device but the reality is that in doing so you are no different than say a surgeon who learned his/her trade by only reading the books instead of one who read the books and did the cutting.

In my case, I've seen the specs and actually listened to the outcome in the real world using all these devices. I learned much more by listening then by just seeing the specs and making assumptions of what the outcome "should be". I don't really care if some choose to believe all DACs sound the same in the end as its their choice but I find it hard to imagine any person with a pulse could believe such things after making actual comparisons using gear with even half respectable resolution.

The argument of paying more for product XYZ thus this is why I think it must be better holds no baring here since the Benchmark DAC3 is far from the most expensive in the list I provided.

There is a validated method for determining whether there are audible differences. If you haven't availed yourself of such testing, your position is meaningless. Take a DBT between two DACs, tell us your results (with supporting facts). Otherwise, you are just talking tommyrot.

 

[cjf]

Lol...If your looking for an apology for using the example I did you've cried to the wrong person. I don't give a rats ass if your offended or embarrassed. Keep your sensitivity out of the topic.

I don't think what I wrote is that hard to understand but if you need me to spell it out then yes the differences in sound between the products I listed are indeed very noticeable. Have you heard all these products? If so, can you say with a straight face they all sound the same?

 

[Wombat]

Lol...If your looking for an apology for using the example I did you've cried to the wrong person. I don't give a rats ass if your offended or embarrassed. Keep your sensitivity out of the topic.

I don't think what I wrote is that hard to understand but if you need me to spell it out then yes the differences in sound between the products I listed are indeed very noticeable. Have you heard all these products? If so, can you say with a straight face they all sound the same?

The old I make an assertion and you prove me wrong trick, eh, Max.

Seriously, you have moved your personal experience/opinion to apply in the wider/public realm. The Onus is on you to back it up.

Asking others to keep sensitivity out of the topic when your reply shows you up in that regard is a bit rich.