Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Rja4000]

My ears are not good enough to determine whether I think the sound is analog or not, sorry for that

You'd have to clearly define what "analog sounding" actually means first.

 

[Matt_Holland]

You'd have to clearly define what "analog sounding" actually means first.

Oh come on! Everyone knows that it means not digital sounding.

 

[Chagall]

Analog sounding, I always took it to mean a romanticized version of how something sounded from memory, like looking at the past with rose-colored nostalgia glasses.
In practice, not sibilant.

 

[dtaylo1066]

As suggested above, I would ask in a different Forum or look in a different place, as the objectivist view here. which is the foundational POV of this forum, is that a DAC meets a certain transparency threshold or it does not based on its measurements, and transparent DACs will all basically sound the same.

On a subjective audio forum you might hear that a Chord Mojo 2 sounds more "analog," or that DACs with AKM chips sound "warmer" than those with ESS chips, or that R2R DACs such as the Denafrips Ares II sound more analog and/or warmer.

You may also look at youTube reviews by "Tharmbar." "IIWIReviews," and "Audiophilliac" and you will get subjective reviews on dozens of affordable DACs that deal more with how the reviewers describe the DACs so-called "sound signature."

If one believes the above subjective approach, the Modi employs an ESS DAC chip. You may want to listen to a Schiit Modi Multi-Bit DAC, as a subjectivist might claim its multi-bit approach and old school AD DAC chip sound more analog or warmer.

Schiit Modi Multibit (ver 2) review - iiWi reviews

Schiit Modi Multibit is the most affordable multibit DAC on the market. How it performs and is the whole multibit hype justified? Let's try and find out.

iiwireviews.com

Good luck. The difference you are hearing is in all likelihood due to a difference in sound level when you A/B compare the two DACs, or the old DAC is so poorly designed or "non-transparent" that the new DAC, in sounding better, may at first sound worse to your ears.

 

[trevor_bartram]

Thanks everyone. When Panasonic introduced the 'A' series in '96, DVD Audio was the next big thing. They made special efforts to realize the potential of DVDA. I believe John Atkinson of Stereophile used an A series player for some time. Of course, Sony, who also make excellent players, were not part of the DVDA consortium. I've had two CD, & several DVD/Blu-ray players over the years, none has come close to the A-110 sonically. Perhaps I just prefer its sonic signature & that of the NAD C540?
P.S. in case I come over as a Panny fanboy, I blind purchased a Panny HiFi CD player (with Sigma-Delta DACs) that would select CD tracks for cassette side breaks automatically. I tried but it was the most lifeless piece of gear I'd ever heard, even to make cassettes for the car. It went to the Sally Army, in disgust.

 

[ahofer]

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

audiosciencereview.com

UPDATE: Well, we just got moved into this very link!

 

[trevor_bartram]

SMSL D300 is, according to some, an analog sounding DAC. I have one and use it. My ears are not good enough to determine whether I think the sound is analog or not, sorry for that. There is a thread at stevehoffman forum, where people claim it is analog sounding.

For me, it works fine. I enjoy my music a lot.

I only use COAX from streamer to DAC, so I have no issues like mentioned over here in the D300 thread.

Thanks, I assume you don't have a (quality) CD player to do comparisons? If that ROHM chip in the D300 is good enough for Luxman it should be good enough for me!

I attended the Hoffman Music forum for about ten years. The link provided mentions quality problems with the D300, does anyone know if that's reflected in current units?

 

[gvl]

The differences are subtle but enough to make the Modi unpleasant in comparison.

Keep using it, the differences will likely disappear.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Analog sounding, I always took it to mean a romanticized version of how something sounded from memory, like looking at the past with rose-colored nostalgia glasses.
In practice, not sibilant.

Well, there is no doubt my Sony turntable sounds analog, along with its cracks and pops and a low SINAD.

 

[ahofer]

I remember the salesman at Lyric Hi-Fi telling me, in 1987, that the kilobuck Esoteric CD transport made CDs sound “almost as good as a turntable

 

[dtaylo1066]

I remember the salesman at Lyric Hi-Fi telling me, in 1987, that the kilobuck Esoteric CD transport made CDs sound “almost as good as a turntable

He moved on from Lyric to sell cars for Yugo, claiming their engine sound compared to that of a 911.

 

[Keith_W]

On a subjective audio forum you might hear that a Chord Mojo 2 sounds more "analog," or that DACs with AKM chips sound "warmer" than those with ESS chips

Astell & Kern makes a DAP called the A&K Futura SE200. The interesting thing about this player is that it has both an AKM 4499 DAC, and an ESS 9068 DAC. You can switch between them and listen. I was surprised that I could hear a difference. I was keen to buy one and send it to Amir, but he declined to review the DAC because he felt that shipping would be too expensive and too risky. There is either something going on in that player to create that difference, or my hearing is playing tricks on me.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Astell & Kern makes a DAP called the A&K Futura SE200. The interesting thing about this player is that it has both an AKM 4499 DAC, and an ESS 9068 DAC. You can switch between them and listen. I was surprised that I could hear a difference. I was keen to buy one and send it to Amir, but he declined to review the DAC because he felt that shipping would be too expensive and too risky. There is either something going on in that player to create that difference, or my hearing is playing tricks on me.

The only thing in specs that might make a slight difference with a low impedance phone is the two chips have different output impedance though I think the difference too small to matter. Otherwise I'd guess the filtering is different in each. Don't know which is available and which you used, but do you hear a difference if you use steep filters on both? I also notice they show 10 hr runtime with the AKM and 14 hr with the ESS. Makes me wonder if one has more power than the other. That too might sound different if you used it with phones that like a little more power.

 

[snip3r77]

You could run a competition like drag racing for pinks (for those not familiar that refers to the winner owning the loser's car after the race).

If you can pick the better measuring DAC in a blind test, you take mine... if not, I take yours.

Edit: Naturally you'd want to eliminate the really bad outliers... but maybe set a minimum SNR of 115dB or so.

So basically if it's more than 115 then the rest is more like personal preference?

 

[Keith_W]

The only thing in specs that might make a slight difference with a low impedance phone is the two chips have different output impedance though I think the difference too small to matter. Otherwise I'd guess the filtering is different in each. Don't know which is available and which you used, but do you hear a difference if you use steep filters on both? I also notice they show 10 hr runtime with the AKM and 14 hr with the ESS. Makes me wonder if one has more power than the other. That too might sound different if you used it with phones that like a little more power.

I can not explain why it sounded different. The volume certainly sounded the same, but the AKM had a noticeable "warmth", just as the subjectivists describe. I have a strong bias towards all DAC's sounding the same, but I have to report honestly here. I don't know what is going on, and I am very keen for Amir to take a look at it. If I am lying to myself, I would love to know that too.

BTW, I do not own this player. I heard it at a shop. I would have to buy one for Amir.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I can not explain why it sounded different. The volume certainly sounded the same, but the AKM had a noticeable "warmth", just as the subjectivists describe. I have a strong bias towards all DAC's sounding the same, but I have to report honestly here. I don't know what is going on, and I am very keen for Amir to take a look at it. If I am lying to myself, I would love to know that too.

BTW, I do not own this player. I heard it at a shop. I would have to buy one for Amir.

Astell&Kern SE200 Review

We checked out the Astell&Kern SE200 DAP, the world’s first ‘Multi-DAC’ portable player available now for $1,799 USD. Read our thoughts now on HFN.

www.headfonia.com

This indicates the AKM outputs 50% higher voltage. And it is not compensated for if you switch. So there is your answer. That would be around 3.5 db, which you might notice, but under the circumstances of an audition in a shop maybe not.

In terms of power, measurements from a forum indicated the AKM doesn't not have 3.5 db more power, but does have about 2 db more power. It did confirm the higher voltage. If you were listening to headphones that too would have mattered depending upon how low the impedance of the phones were.

 

[digicidal]

So basically if it's more than 115 then the rest is more like personal preference?

If you mean personal preference for aesthetics, brand, price, inputs, etc. then "yes" - more than that and humans lack the organic equipment to determine audible differences.

The only way any actual differences can be heard is by utilizing what are measurably the most inaccurate components in any signal chain - the recorded material itself on one side and the headphones/speakers on the other. You could have a perfect DAC, perfect amp, and some mythical speakers or headphones that are somehow capable of perfection as well... and it won't help if what you mostly want to listen to is original Robert Johnson recordings from the 30's.

Luckily now the majority of recording and reproduction gear is more accurate than is necessary to exceed our hearing capabilities... so we can all just blame the guy on the sound board for anything we don't like.

 

[Peerke007]

Thanks, I assume you don't have a (quality) CD player to do comparisons? If that ROHM chip in the D300 is good enough for Luxman it should be good enough for me!

I attended the Hoffman Music forum for about ten years. The link provided mentions quality problems with the D300, does anyone know if that's reflected in current units?

As I said, I don't have the ears for this. I don't hear the difference between albums played by any chain I use, whether it is streaming (Node 2i and D300) or Turntable (Technics SLQ2 and Vincent PHO700) apart from the occasional pops and clicks. Probably because I never learned listening to equipment.

I know a guy who build a separate underground listening room next to his house, invested probably 100 times more money than I did in equipment and his room. He still is not satisfied.

The quality issues (also discussed on this forum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-d300-review-balanced-dac.28919/) have to do with "upgrading" firmware, as far as I understand. I did not upgrade my unit. I use it as it came out of the box. Stream the music from the Node 2i (Qobuz, Spotify or FLAC files from a SSD) over COAX. No issues at all. I don't know if my unit would have issues using USB or Optical input, I never tried.

 

[antcollinet]

I can not explain why it sounded different. The volume certainly sounded the same, but the AKM had a noticeable "warmth", just as the subjectivists describe. I have a strong bias towards all DAC's sounding the same, but I have to report honestly here. I don't know what is going on, and I am very keen for Amir to take a look at it. If I am lying to myself, I would love to know that too.

BTW, I do not own this player. I heard it at a shop. I would have to buy one for Amir.

So didn't test blind - and probably not accurately level matched. And in noisy environment with surrounding distractions.

I'm not that surprised you perceived a difference. I'd be very surprised if that difference were in the signal (other than small level variations)

 

[trevor_bartram]

As I said, I don't have the ears for this. I don't hear the difference between albums played by any chain I use, whether it is streaming (Node 2i and D300) or Turntable (Technics SLQ2 and Vincent PHO700) apart from the occasional pops and clicks. Probably because I never learned listening to equipment.

I know a guy who build a separate underground listening room next to his house, invested probably 100 times more money than I did in equipment and his room. He still is not satisfied.

The quality issues (also discussed on this forum: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/smsl-d300-review-balanced-dac.28919/) have to do with "upgrading" firmware, as far as I understand. I did not upgrade my unit. I use it as it came out of the box. Stream the music from the Node 2i (Qobuz, Spotify or FLAC files from a SSD) over COAX. No issues at all. I don't know if my unit would have issues using USB or Optical input, I never tried.

Thanks for the reply!