Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[voodooless]

Louder is supposed to sound better, however the Su10 is quiter than the P6.

It’s irrelevant what it is supposed to do. You didn’t level match, so all bets are off.

 

[xnor]

What?! Who said ANYTHING about the Su9? You must be mistaken.

The post you quoted and responded to. I'm sorry if I caused confusion by only quoting your response to it.

I started with very low volume on both and only went up to about 40%. Also the measured output on the Su10 is 5.3v while P6 is 7v. So p6 is technically louder in volume.

Assuming dacs have no sound, fair enough, they're designed to convert digital to analog which in theory shouldn't produce different sound between units.Okay, but what about different OP amps between dac units? The Su10 has 21 dual-op amps, would those also not alter the sound between different dacs?

And audio opamps are designed so that the output equals the input times a constant. They are specifically designed for linearity (low distortion) and low noise. Unless they are implemented incorrectly they should be the least of your concerns in a DAC and will have no effect on humanly perceivable differences in the signal.

Btw, the number of opamps doesn't tell you anything. Adding more opamps can increase e.g. noise or instability depending on the implementation.

But yeah, not matching levels properly is like comparing two potentially identical pictures in different lighting conditions and from different distances.
Knowing which device you listen to also adds cognitive biases that demonstrably alter our perception. The power of these things is so strong that it can make you hear things that are not there.

 

[Narek]

It’s irrelevant what it is supposed to do. You didn’t level match, so all bets are off.

I did also listen to them with the p6 at lower lower volume as compared to Su10, no change.

 

[voodooless]

I did also listen to them with the p6 at lower lower volume as compared to Su10, no change.

That still no good. Matching has to be done precisely! And you obviously knew which is what. You cannot just disable biases in your head either.

 

[solderdude]

The Su10 has 21 dual-op amps, would those also not alter the sound between different dacs?

Actually the idea is that this is better. The used DAC chip has 16 channels and all 16 channels have their own I-V converters.
Then 8 of those channels are in parallel (the other 8 for the other channel)
The idea is that this increases fidelity as 'errors' are averaged and noise being random in nature but the signal is not is supposed to increase S/N ratio (lower impedances) so in this case the more the merrier... more opamps = increased signal fidelity. There is no 'sound signature' of the opamps added.

This trick actually works. To create a very small increase again (we are already at the bottom of what's possible with 2V out or 4V balanced) ypu would need to double the components again. This, however, is pointless as at some point you cannot get noise lower.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I did also listen to them with the p6 at lower lower volume as compared to Su10, no change.

Sorry one big thing about listening comparisons, sighted or not. Match volume levels precisely. To within 1%. That is JOB #1. Don't pass go, don't collect $200. If you don't do this step, your listening test is useless.

 

[xnor]

@Narek Do you happen to have some measurements for the parasound p6?

 

[Rillosi]

Curious if you hear difference between both dac’s.
I keep using my topping d90se dac, because I hear a little improvement over the A6 master version dac.
but some people keep telling there is no difference because the dmp a-6 is ‘transparent’……….

That's all the point.

I hear no differences between the Auralic streamer/DAC and the Eversolo couple.

I bought the Auralic VEGA G2.1 three years ago for almost $8k and listened to it daily for hours.
So, if I would be biased, I would be Auralic-biased, right?
Now, some weeks ago, I purchased for a second system the Eversolo DPM-A6 streamer and the Z-8 dac for less than 1/5th of the cost of the Auralic ($1,500) ad.
After days of comparisons in the primary system, I do not hear any difference.

I bought the Z8 DAC because it measures much better than the DMP-A6. And standards are better than the Auralic, too.

Don't get me wrong: Auralic is terrific! Look at the ladder step volume system inside and the internal power supplies. Real high-end,

and it must be for $ 7,800!

But the point is that I didn't do any blind test initially. I trusted the innovation claimed by Auralic, which Amir has confirmed.
High-end is like Formula 1: all the best virtues of technology are tested here. Then, after two or three years, it is going to waterfalls down to the future high-quality production, and after two or three years, it will be spread down to medium-quality mass production.
If you want to go faster, it is better to have the resources of the Red Bull or, Mercedes, or Ferrari teams.
If you can wait three years, Eversolo is the best.
If you don't care too much and could wait for another five years, a Sony DAC will probably match those results.

My two pennies.

 

[Purité Audio]

Not really inexpensive state of the art dacs are available right now, they will be audibly transparent as is the Auralic, the Eversolo DMP and their Dac Z-8 , you are looking for good engineering which needn’t be expensive.
‘Trickle down’ ( how I detest that expression) is just more marketing flimflam.
Keith

 

[xnor]

Owning "state of the art" equipment is fine but we have to keep in mind that it is a purely technical and moving target. The stuff that once was top of the line, state of the art, high end etc. is now often only average in performance and you can get the same performance (or better) for a price that is magnitudes lower today.

I think that in most systems these devices were already transparent back then, so spending lots of money on something that measures even better is like spending money on a high precision ruler even though you only need to measure to the nearest millimeter and your eyesight did not get better over the years either.

While "trickle down economics" is often used as a BS argument in politics, there certainly is such an effect in electronics.
Just open up the datasheet of a $1 DAC chip from 20 years ago and compare the performance to that of a current design for the same price (and if we didn't ignore inflation then the difference would get even bigger).

 

[bplatypus]

Don't forget the superb X26 Pro...........

GUSTARD X26 PRO Dual ES9038Pro Digital to Analog Convertor (DAC)

Product Specifications: Sample rate supported by digital input channels: COAX : PCM 16-24bit/44.1-192kHz; DSD DOP64 AES : PCM 16-24bit/44.1-192kHz; DSD DOP64 OPT : PCM 16-24bit/44.1-192kHz; DSD DOP64 USB : PCM 16-32bit/44. 1-768kHz ; DSD DOP64-DOP256; NATIVE DSD: DSD64-DSD512 IIS : PCM...

shenzhenaudio.com

didn't even look at it because of the DAC it's using. (I know DAC chip implementation is more important than the chip itself but I didn't want a sabre DAC in the first place and this is why I didn't look at it)

How does it compare to the r26 & a26? I'm not in a quest of having the most detailed & neutral DAC... I lean more to something which has big soundstage and is more musical than analytical if I can say that.

 

[migo77]

didn't even look at it because of the DAC it's using. (I know DAC chip implementation is more important than the chip itself but I didn't want a sabre DAC in the first place and this is why I didn't look at it)

How does it compare to the r26 & a26? I'm not in a quest of having the most detailed & neutral DAC... I lean more to something which has big soundstage and is more musical than analytical if I can say that.

I've tried R26 but it was disappointment compared to X26pro. Nothing like bigger sound-stage was in R26 only troubles...

 

[bplatypus]

I've tried R26 but it was disappointment compared to X26pro. Nothing like bigger sound-stage was in R26 only troubles...

personal taste & synergy with your other devices

For those interested, I found this comparison between both of them: https://soundnews.net/sources/dacs/...-gustard-r26-discrete-r-2r-ladder-dac-review/

 

[A Surfer]

Good lord no, there is no synergy with a DAC. Seriously.

 

[bplatypus]

Good lord no, there is no synergy with a DAC. Seriously.

if you already have a warmish tube amp in your system maybe it's not the best idea to add a DAC which brings more warm to the system... this is what I meant with synergy. (just an example, not speaking about the DACs we are talking about)

 

[A Surfer]

if you already have a warmish tube amp in your system maybe it's not the best idea to add a DAC which brings more warm to the system... this is what I meant with synergy. (just an example, not speaking about the DACs we are talking about)

I understand that you are trying to be balanced and not make sensational claims, thank you for that; however, I think you will find that very few people in this community support the idea that a DAC can change or influence the perceived sound at all. Unless somehow it was absolutely flawed to the point that you would not want to use it. Why would a DAC have any influence on sound at all?

 

[bplatypus]

I understand that you are trying to be balanced and not make sensational claims, thank you for that; however, I think you will find that very few people in this community support the idea that a DAC can change or influence the perceived sound at all. Unless somehow it was absolutely flawed to the point that you would not want to use it. Why would a DAC have any influence on sound at all?

if it was the case, people would just buy the cheapest DAC right?

 

[Killingbeans]

If cognitive bias was wiped from existence, and people suddenly gained the ability to do technically solid comparisons, then yes... they probably would just buy the cheapest one with the features and build quality they wanted/needed. But alas, human brains have a tendency to fabricate things that aren't really present, and we often fail at comparing apples to apples.

 

[DonR]

if it was the case, people would just buy the cheapest DAC right?

The cheapest one that is transparent to you, all other things being equal (looks, build quality, reliability, customer service, functionality, etc.)

 

[Beave]

didn't even look at it because of the DAC it's using. (I know DAC chip implementation is more important than the chip itself but I didn't want a sabre DAC in the first place and this is why I didn't look at it)

How does it compare to the r26 & a26? I'm not in a quest of having the most detailed & neutral DAC... I lean more to something which has big soundstage and is more musical than analytical if I can say that.

How would a DAC affect soundstage? How would one be more "musical" than another? What does "analytical" mean in the context of a DAC?