That's one way to put it.
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Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?
- Thread starter Willhelm_Scream
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My plan is to integrate the speakers with the TV (which is my desktop display as well) just like I did with my S350DB, I'm not really a fan of watching movies on headphones but sure I do have them, still I far prefer using speakers since there's quite a big difference in headphone playing bass in your head vs feeling the bass from speakers on your actual body and environment, plus if I wanna just dance around the room then filling the room with sound is much more convenient than having headphones/IEMs to me, or when I have people around and wanna play music for everybody and so on... headphones/IEMs are WAAAAY more limited for my actual use case, I do have a few but I use them way less than my speakers, always have, basically I'll only use them if I still wanna rock and it's past 10pm where I can't blast my speakers
There are always going to be speakers where you can offload your extra money
The lowest octave and high SPLs are where a lot of that money can disappear quickly, especially in a larger room.
It really is remarkable how much people want to believe these stories with zero evidence. The slightest bit of skepticism goes a very long way.
Yeah I definitely do quite a bit more than most lol, desktop/PC, TV and "audio room" all-in-one! Though even if it was just for the PC, just the lack of bass feeling makes me not use headphones/IEMs as much
Better speakers are indeed my plan for now but likely limited to 5.25-6.5" as otherwise they won't fit neatly in my desk, also could be wrong but I feel like I wouldn't benefit much if at all from bigger speakers on my 3x3m room (and floorstanders are a no-no), for the low-end I'm gonna be pairing the Oberon 1 with a KEF Kube 12b sub which should arrive in a few days
My thinking atm is that if the S350DB 8" sub was good enough (lacking some bass extension) then the 12b will blow it out of the water with ease, SPL for the sub will be WAY more than I'll ever need on this 9m² room, same for the Oberon 1 using the Aiyima A07 Max with the 36v6a PSU, I usually keep the dial between 9-10 o'clock, highest I've set it is 11 or so and I don't feel like I can go higher without getting evicted from my apartment so seems like there's no point upgrading DAC and amp at all unless I want more connectivity
Honestly it really bothers me as it leads to audio threads/forums in general being extremely confusing to read as some people don't believe all that bs and some swear by it even with nothing (other than their own bias) to back up their claims, it annoys me because if it isn't true at all then to me there's a ton of people just spreading misinformation which should be a bannable offense as it doesn't really adds anything relevant to the discussion and just makes the hobby in general extremely confusing to people who are new to it
I agree. I am an advocate of watching music videos on YouTube. They sound great and add the actual performance visual. Highly recommended. (I also use Qobuz with Audirvana).
However, no matter the source, I have experienced audible differences in DAC selection. It was especially noticeable in the bass. Clearly better, tighter more refined. In fact, the sound actually altered the sound enough to where I had to change the phase setting on the subwoofers (high level connection) and moved to sealed subs.
Easily detectable differences. To me the difference was enormous. I also attribute this change to the addition of the Sparkos SS2590 discrete Op-amp. The level of improvement is stunning! Probably the biggest change in sound quality of any other component I've ever made.
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He joined ASR about a week ago . Give him another week?
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Yeah ... you're right. Sorry 'bout that. It seems very few new posters scan the available info.
@Tinker ....
People constantly hear things that don't exist, mostly because of cognitive biases. This is because we actually hear things with our brain, and not our ears.
The brain uses two very efficient but inconsistent mechanisms: 1) shortcuts and 2) heuristics. They help us react effectively (and survive), but they are in no way calibrated to any reproducible standard.
The idea of reproducibility is one of the foundations of the Scientific Method, which was created in an attempt to control our biases and see through the voodoo, superstition and false assumptions that were, at one time, rampant in human experience.
In audio, the gold standard of obtaining reliable information is double-blind testing. This video by the owner of this site, Amir Majidimehr, can clarify the "hows and whys" of testing.
Lots of links ... and lots of information. Good luck!
Jim
p.s. - I have no idea how avid a reader you are, but there are also two other resources here at ASR; 1) the master list of instructional videos and 2) the reference library, which I personally find sorta dry and boring, but still very helpful at times.
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You've almost certainly perceived differences, but that doesn't make them real. Human brains work in funny ways (which is why we have optical illusions). This is why we use basic controls to determine if what we believe we're hearing is actually a difference in the sound. If you are sincerely interested in reality checking your perceptions, people here will be happy to help you set up the basic experiments to do the evaluation ears-only.
… or the discrete opamp swap totally fucked up the performance into audible territory. Not at all inconceivable.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
Don't take this personally, but what you wrote above makes absolutely no sense.
There's nothing in a DAC that would make it handle the bass like that. It literally samples the bass notes 1000 times more than necessary. Bass is childs play for any DAC, especially since it outputs a line level signal that's passed on via impedance bridging. It does at no point control the "tightness" of the bass the same way that an amplifier and a speaker/headphone would do it collaboratively.
The only way a DAC would be able to make bass more or less "tight" would be if it implemented EQ of some sort, either through DSP or analogue filters. It wouldn't really be describing differences in the sound of DACs in those cases, though. Rather it would just expose manufacturers using cheap parlor tricks to make their line level gear stand out from the crowd. Although, it's highly unlikely that this is the cause of what you're descibing. Rule flat frequency response is the de facto standard in DAC designs.
It's far more likely that you've fallen victim to cognitive bias.
Or maybe you didn't have exactly the same listening position when you did the comparison and simply confused room modes with something coming from the DACs.
… or the DAC had it’s phase inverted. Also not unheard off.
@Jim Taylor
@SIY
I fully understand cognitive bias and the need for definitive measurements through testing.
My post was about sharing "my experience". Not try to declare anything scientifically. However, the only point of scientific validation I would make was experiencing a change in the phase of my subwoofers. That was a real and verifiable change. Not my imagination. It was easily detectable through simple blind tests which I did. Flipping the phase switch back and forth hearing the drop in bass level and obvious need for a REVERSAL of 180 degrees was clearly audible to everyone tested including my sound meter. I believe this was a proven indication that something had changed and led me to further investigation. The other observations are my opinion and experience. Nothing more, nothing less.
@SIY
I fully understand cognitive bias and the need for definitive measurements through testing.
My post was about sharing "my experience". Not try to declare anything scientifically. However, the only point of scientific validation I would make was experiencing a change in the phase of my subwoofers. That was a real and verifiable change. Not my imagination. It was easily detectable through simple blind tests which I did. Flipping the phase switch back and forth hearing the drop in bass level and obvious need for a REVERSAL of 180 degrees was clearly audible to everyone tested including my sound meter. I believe this was a proven indication that something had changed and led me to further investigation. The other observations are my opinion and experience. Nothing more, nothing less.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
Like @voodooless says, the output of the enormously different sounding DAC vas probably just phase inverted.
So yeah, truly an audible difference, but not anything related to the "sound" of DACs.
And definitely not something that can be attributed to an alleged superiority of the Sparkos op-amps.
So yeah, truly an audible difference, but not anything related to the "sound" of DACs.
And definitely not something that can be attributed to an alleged superiority of the Sparkos op-amps.
This would all be quite measurable in the DAC output FR, so nothing here that measurements wouldn't reveal, either in the DAC, or if not there, room measurements (to capture an implausible downstream reaction from broken/maldesigned output).
re. phase reversal: Audiophile Attribution Error strikes again!
re. phase reversal: Audiophile Attribution Error strikes again!
Measurements are important, but for sonic claims, well-controlled tests are vital. Until then, "sharing my experience" is worse than meaningless. Sorry to be blunt, but this is science-based forum where extraordinary claims need to have actual evidence behind them to be taken as anything other than a fairy tale.
Actually, that can change frequency response at the crossover IF it’s polarity of the sub versus mains. If it’s an overall polarity flip, the effects are subtle at best on very specific material rather than an easily audible bass change. On most material, there’s no obvious difference.
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