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How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

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I'm willing to bet that the majority of self proclaimed audiophiles can't reliably distinguish Spotify from hi res, despite the perceived subjective difference apparently being as 'obvious as night and day'.
I agree. I am an advocate of watching music videos on YouTube. They sound great and add the actual performance visual. Highly recommended. (I also use Qobuz with Audirvana).

However, no matter the source, I have experienced audible differences in DAC selection. It was especially noticeable in the bass. Clearly better, tighter more refined. In fact, the sound actually altered the sound enough to where I had to change the phase setting on the subwoofers (high level connection) and moved to sealed subs.

Easily detectable differences. To me the difference was enormous. I also attribute this change to the addition of the Sparkos SS2590 discrete Op-amp. The level of improvement is stunning! Probably the biggest change in sound quality of any other component I've ever made.
 
He joined ASR about a week ago . Give him another week?

Yeah ... you're right. Sorry 'bout that. It seems very few new posters scan the available info.

@Tinker ....

People constantly hear things that don't exist, mostly because of cognitive biases. This is because we actually hear things with our brain, and not our ears.
The brain uses two very efficient but inconsistent mechanisms: 1) shortcuts and 2) heuristics. They help us react effectively (and survive), but they are in no way calibrated to any reproducible standard.
The idea of reproducibility is one of the foundations of the Scientific Method, which was created in an attempt to control our biases and see through the voodoo, superstition and false assumptions that were, at one time, rampant in human experience.

In audio, the gold standard of obtaining reliable information is double-blind testing. This video by the owner of this site, Amir Majidimehr, can clarify the "hows and whys" of testing.

Lots of links ... and lots of information. Good luck! :):)

Jim

p.s. - I have no idea how avid a reader you are, but there are also two other resources here at ASR; 1) the master list of instructional videos and 2) the reference library, which I personally find sorta dry and boring, but still very helpful at times.
 
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However, no matter the source, I have experienced audible differences in DAC selection.
You've almost certainly perceived differences, but that doesn't make them real. Human brains work in funny ways (which is why we have optical illusions). This is why we use basic controls to determine if what we believe we're hearing is actually a difference in the sound. If you are sincerely interested in reality checking your perceptions, people here will be happy to help you set up the basic experiments to do the evaluation ears-only.
 
However, no matter the source, I have experienced audible differences in DAC selection. It was especially noticeable in the bass. Clearly better, tighter more refined. In fact, the sound actually altered the sound enough to where I had to change the phase setting on the subwoofers (high level connection) and moved to sealed subs.

Don't take this personally, but what you wrote above makes absolutely no sense.

There's nothing in a DAC that would make it handle the bass like that. It literally samples the bass notes 1000 times more than necessary. Bass is childs play for any DAC, especially since it outputs a line level signal that's passed on via impedance bridging. It does at no point control the "tightness" of the bass the same way that an amplifier and a speaker/headphone would do it collaboratively.

The only way a DAC would be able to make bass more or less "tight" would be if it implemented EQ of some sort, either through DSP or analogue filters. It wouldn't really be describing differences in the sound of DACs in those cases, though. Rather it would just expose manufacturers using cheap parlor tricks to make their line level gear stand out from the crowd. Although, it's highly unlikely that this is the cause of what you're descibing. Rule flat frequency response is the de facto standard in DAC designs.

It's far more likely that you've fallen victim to cognitive bias.

Or maybe you didn't have exactly the same listening position when you did the comparison and simply confused room modes with something coming from the DACs.
 
Or maybe you didn't have exactly the same listening position when you did the comparison and simply confused room modes with something coming from the DACs
… or the DAC had it’s phase inverted. Also not unheard off.
 
@Jim Taylor
@SIY

I fully understand cognitive bias and the need for definitive measurements through testing.

My post was about sharing "my experience". Not try to declare anything scientifically. However, the only point of scientific validation I would make was experiencing a change in the phase of my subwoofers. That was a real and verifiable change. Not my imagination. It was easily detectable through simple blind tests which I did. Flipping the phase switch back and forth hearing the drop in bass level and obvious need for a REVERSAL of 180 degrees was clearly audible to everyone tested including my sound meter. I believe this was a proven indication that something had changed and led me to further investigation. The other observations are my opinion and experience. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
Like @voodooless says, the output of the enormously different sounding DAC vas probably just phase inverted.

So yeah, truly an audible difference, but not anything related to the "sound" of DACs.

And definitely not something that can be attributed to an alleged superiority of the Sparkos op-amps.
 
This would all be quite measurable in the DAC output FR, so nothing here that measurements wouldn't reveal, either in the DAC, or if not there, room measurements (to capture an implausible downstream reaction from broken/maldesigned output).

re. phase reversal: Audiophile Attribution Error strikes again!
 
I fully understand cognitive bias and the need for definitive measurements through testing.
Measurements are important, but for sonic claims, well-controlled tests are vital. Until then, "sharing my experience" is worse than meaningless. Sorry to be blunt, but this is science-based forum where extraordinary claims need to have actual evidence behind them to be taken as anything other than a fairy tale.
 
re. phase reversal: Audiophile Attribution Error strikes again!
Actually, that can change frequency response at the crossover IF it’s polarity of the sub versus mains. If it’s an overall polarity flip, the effects are subtle at best on very specific material rather than an easily audible bass change. On most material, there’s no obvious difference.
 
I agree. I am an advocate of watching music videos on YouTube. They sound great and add the actual performance visual. Highly recommended. (I also use Qobuz with Audirvana).

However, no matter the source, I have experienced audible differences in DAC selection. It was especially noticeable in the bass. Clearly better, tighter more refined. In fact, the sound actually altered the sound enough to where I had to change the phase setting on the subwoofers (high level connection) and moved to sealed subs.

Easily detectable differences. To me the difference was enormous. I also attribute this change to the addition of the Sparkos SS2590 discrete Op-amp. The level of improvement is stunning! Probably the biggest change in sound quality of any other component I've ever made.
Slightly confusing answer, you've agreed with me that there is no audible difference (in something that can easily be quantified) and then argue that there are audible differences in something that if working correctly will measure the same.
 
I have currently RME ADI-2 FS and REGA DAC (non R).

In my setup REGA is very decent sounding comparing to RME.
Had at one moment a Topping D90 which I have found too flat and sterile for my taste so I quickly returned it.
This is one of the reasons that I only trust my ears and not judge by numbers.
 
Yes.
RME is definitely cleaner but not night and day.

For information , I use a Wireworld Electra (non Silver) power cord on Rega.
This upgrade made a big difference vs, initial stock cable
 
Measurements are important, but for sonic claims, well-controlled tests are vital. Until then, "sharing my experience" is worse than meaningless. Sorry to be blunt, but this is science-based forum where extraordinary claims need to have actual evidence behind them to be taken as anything other than a fairy tale.
This is like where science was in discussing consciousness decades ago, when any and all observational claims about consciousness were dismissed as "fairy tale." More recently science has matured to where it has been widely recognized that at minimum observational claims should be correlated with neurological evidence (the "neural correlates of consciousness" approach). Neuroscience has come to realize that it must explain consciousness as we experience it, not just write off such experience as "fairy tale." Of course, there were a number of behaviorist-trained neuroscientists who wanted to keep consciousness as a "black box" to be left out of scientific explanation, who tried to silence those who rejected writing off conscious experience as some sort of illusion beneath the dignity of science.

Anyway, the approach over the last several decades is to work it from both sides. Francis Crick and Christof Kock published the foundational work on this approach 30 years ago. There's been much progress since. Reports from our experience of consciousness are not "extraordinary claims." This is an area of much remaining mystery, where we need to work from both sides, subjective as well as objective evidence and experimentation. That's the way science works now, concerning the capacities of consciousness. Seeing as we're all concerned with music here, which has no meaning outside of our consciousness of it, we need to design our experiments so as to meaningfully correlate with our observations of consciousness.

I get it that this forum is largely engineers and not neuroscientists. But we're talking about engineering musical equipment. The tests being reported here are immensely valuable, just as the experiments by consciousness-ignoring behaviorist psychologists were. There's yet more science to be done by taking reports from conscious experience seriously, as most modern neuroscientists do, and not base engineering claims on an outdated behaviorist paradigm.
 
Slightly confusing answer, you've agreed with me that there is no audible difference (in something that can easily be quantified) and then argue that there are audible differences in something that if working correctly will measure the same.
For example... if you use Spotify, You tube or Qobuz for source material, I agree with you that most people can't tell the difference in resolution between them. Even though the difference IS measurable.

However, all three sources will be affected in some way by components used downstream. DAC, pre-amp, amp. The touchy subject here is whether DAC's sound different? Objectively, a good DAC would be transparent. I think everyone agrees with this.

This raises a question whether some DAC's are not transparent and are colored in some way. Possible? Why is this idea so far fetched? It's much more than a simple DAC chip converting ones and zeros. Inside the box there's an electric design, there are additional filters and Op-amp chips and components that could make it sound different. (I didn't say better, I said different.)

In my case it's very possible the difference I was hearing was because the new DAC was transparent and perhaps my other DAC was not?? I don't know. It was first brought to my attention in the bass region. Especially when quickly flipping the phase switch back and forth on the subwoofer (part of the setup process most people overlook) the changes became VERY apparent that it sounded different. Where one person may find the differences to be subtle, I may find the same changes to be substantial. Someone who evaluates the bass region listening to mostly classical/acoustic music may experience NO changes at all, whereas a person listening to EDM or current pop music may hear a much improved dynamic presentation. All listeners are not created equal. Some hear it and some don't or don't care. (it all sounds the same to my wife!)

Hope this helps!
 
This is like where science was in discussing consciousness decades ago, when any and all observational claims about consciousness were dismissed as "fairy tale." More recently science has matured to where it has been widely recognized that at minimum observational claims should be correlated with neurological evidence (the "neural correlates of consciousness" approach). Neuroscience has come to realize that it must explain consciousness as we experience it, not just write off such experience as "fairy tale." Of course, there were a number of behaviorist-trained neuroscientists who wanted to keep consciousness as a "black box" to be left out of scientific explanation, who tried to silence those who rejected writing off conscious experience as some sort of illusion beneath the dignity of science.

Anyway, the approach over the last several decades is to work it from both sides. Francis Crick and Christof Kock published the foundational work on this approach 30 years ago. There's been much progress since. Reports from our experience of consciousness are not "extraordinary claims." This is an area of much remaining mystery, where we need to work from both sides, subjective as well as objective evidence and experimentation. That's the way science works now, concerning the capacities of consciousness. Seeing as we're all concerned with music here, which has no meaning outside of our consciousness of it, we need to design our experiments so as to meaningfully correlate with our observations of consciousness.

I get it that this forum is largely engineers and not neuroscientists. But we're talking about engineering musical equipment. The tests being reported here are immensely valuable, just as the experiments by consciousness-ignoring behaviorist psychologists were. There's yet more science to be done by taking reports from conscious experience seriously, as most modern neuroscientists do, and not base engineering claims on an outdated behaviorist paradigm.
Much handwaving here, I'm afraid. Here's the problem- there is zero, none, zip, nada, rien, bupkis experimental evidence that any two pieces of electronics with "good enough" measurements can be distinguished by ear alone. So no need to delve into vague notions of neuroscience (and in fact we have several members who are world-class experts in that field) to try to explain phenomena which haven't been shown to exist.
 
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