Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Nutul]

Indeed imagination or something when other factors are held constant.

I disagree, since hi-fi is generally used to denote sound quality and means high fidelity (accuracy).

High fidelity like in sound as close as possible to the original.

 

[marshalldhance]

@amirm measures all those things. What do you think the distortion measurement is measuring if not harmonic (as well as inharmonic) distortion?

And time domain - that is just another view of the frequency domain. What is inaudible in one is also inaudible in the other.

Again, first demonstrate under controlled conditions that there is an audible difference to be measured, and perhaps then we can talk about what measurements might be missing.

Time domain also includes phase. It's obvious as day the effect different filters have on an otherwise perfectly performing DAC. This is measurable, and it can be heard. For some reason it is left out of the suite of measurements given in reviews here, in my opinion to facilitate a narrowly dogmatic approach to supposed "audio science", or to simply gaslight those who might suggest Topping isn't the end of the line.

 

[krabapple]

"It's obvious as day the effect different filters have on an otherwise perfectly performing DAC. "

and away we go.

 

[oleg87]

Time domain also includes phase. It's obvious as day the effect different filters have on an otherwise perfectly performing DAC. This is measurable, and it can be heard. For some reason it is left out of the suite of measurements given in reviews here, in my opinion to facilitate a narrowly dogmatic approach to supposed "audio science", or to simply gaslight those who might suggest Topping isn't the end of the line.

Which Topping DAC does not offer linear-phase filters (if we grant the extremely dubious assertion that you can hear phase distortion in the upper treble where most music has very little energy and most adult ears have even less hearing)?

 

[BDWoody]

It's obvious as day the effect different filters have on an otherwise perfectly performing DAC. This is measurable, and it can be heard. For some reason it is left out of the suite of measurements given in reviews here,

Is it?

Here are a couple I picked where the threads were recently active.

What am I missing?

 

[Geert]

Time domain also includes phase. It's obvious as day the effect different filters have on an otherwise perfectly performing DAC. This is measurable, and it can be heard. For some reason it is left out of the suite of measurements given in reviews here,

ASR is the largest database of DAC filter measurements in the world. So what's your complaint? Missing phase measurements? Do you know of other sites who publish them? And do you have any information on phase differences between different DAC's, just to get an idea of the importance?

Regarding "it can be heard": don't know if that also refers to phase, but if so, the scientific consensus is that phase differences are inaudible when it comes to high frequencies. If you believe otherwise, then please post some research material.

 

[krabapple]

It's been awhile since an 'obvious as night and day/veils were lifted/even my spouse could'-level claim has popped on on ASR.

Spring must be in the air.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Time domain also includes phase. It's obvious as day the effect different filters have on an otherwise perfectly performing DAC. This is measurable, and it can be heard. For some reason it is left out of the suite of measurements given in reviews here, in my opinion to facilitate a narrowly dogmatic approach to supposed "audio science", or to simply gaslight those who might suggest Topping isn't the end of the line.

Some filters can effect frequency response which is more likely what one is hearing. You can grab Pkanes Deltawave and measure for yourself. Deltawave presents phase information. Does it using music as the test signal.

 

[ahofer]

It's been awhile since an 'obvious as night and day/veils were lifted/even my spouse could'-level claim has popped on on ASR.

Spring must be in the air.

You missed @Schlippwhip68 ? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...peaker-wire-burn-in.21640/page-9#post-1877659

 

[Nutul]

You missed @Schlippwhip68 ? https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...peaker-wire-burn-in.21640/page-9#post-1877659

Wow, 8Hz... On a cable. How could I have missed that...
Oh, I see it's from yesterday... gotta pay more attention. Thanks for the link.

 

[krabapple]

Wow, 8Hz... On a cable. How could I have missed that...
Oh, I see it's from yesterday... gotta pay more attention. Thanks for the link.

Yes, apparently eternal vigilance is in order...

That one seems especially ripe in both crackpot belief and florid expression. And he's been lurking here since 2020.

 

[Nutul]

That one seems especially ripe in both crackpot belief and florid expression. And he's been lurking here since 2020.

He's helping out covering one by one all these little details we might have left behind not debunked. Good boy.

 

[marshalldhance]

Is it?

Here are a couple I picked where the threads were recently active.



What am I missing?

Group delay curves for each of the filters.
Or a single square wave.

 

[Deleted member 21219]

Here is a fairly good paper on the audibility of group delay:

Audibility of Group-Delay Equalization

This paper discusses the audibility of group-delay variations. Previous research has found limits of audibility as a function of frequency for different test signals, but extracting the tolerance for group delay to help audio reproduction system designers is hard. This study considers four...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

Here is the exact same information in a slightly different format:

https://acris.aalto.fi/ws/portalfiles/portal/66449704/Audibility_of_Group_Delay_Equalization.pdf

If you're looking for a quick and easy rule of thumb, this chart suffices:

Frequency (kHz)	Threshold (ms)	Periods (Cycles)
0.5	3.2	1.6
1	2	2
2	1	2
4	1.5	6
8	2	16

Notice that sensitivity to group delay changes with frequency. Greatest sensitivity seems to be at neither the low frequencies nor the high frequencies, but instead the middle frequencies.

Jim

 

[voodooless]

You should use linear phase filters anyway. No phase issues, no group delay.. why bother..

 

[Mnyb]

You should use linear phase filters anyway. No phase issues, no group delay.. why bother..

But they want you to bother that’s why they built in all those filters instead of just pick the correct one at the engineering phase and stuck the setting there .

Some makes the DAC inaudible worse , but some of the really broken filters migth be audible especially for young folks with good hf hearing .

In fact it’s a good tell tale . Is not the “linear phase fast” or something like that the obvious one with flat fr and good attenuation . If any of the other filters actually sounds different that tells you to never use them again.

 

[voodooless]

Some makes the DAC inaudible worse , but some of the really broken filters migth be audible especially for young folks with good hf hearing .

All hail the square wave, I guess

 

[voodooless]

All hail the square wave, I guess

Might I add, that people that think that DACs should reproduce square wave perfectly, didn’t understand the sampling theorem.

 

[Taltalon]

Guys - I got by a freak opportunity the FiiO K9 Pro ESS (2xES9380PRO). there was a deal here at a local shop that I could not refuse. I am telling you it's amazing.
HD 800 S + this FiiO K9 Pro ESS is out of this world (can go up to 1100mW @ 300 Ohm at the balanced headphone jack, the A30 Pro is around 860mW).
Too bad it cant do DSD256 ( I have like 13 albums with DSD256) and it can only do MQA Rendering (not full decoder in hardware).

I don't know if its the Fiio Amp inside, but the sound is wide, rich, warm but not too warm, with detail, its incomparable to the cheap DACAMPs I have here (EX5, K7, Zen DAC v2) - huge difference.
I connected my old Topping EX5 to this Fiio K9 Pro via RCA to compare - the sound from the EX5 is narrower, less details, no warmth. Its noticeable.
But this EX5 can do full MQA Decoding and DSD256 (vs only MQA Rendering and up to DSD128 in the K9 Pro ESS) :-(

Does anyone know if the Topping E70 Velvet or anything with AK4499EX (i.e SMSL D400 Pro for example) sounds better than this K9 Pro ESS? is there any point to go further than this? - currently the only thing that bothers me is lack of DSD256 decoding. I need advise when to stop

Thanks
Tal

 

[staticV3]

@Taltalon Use proper controls while comparing and your K9 Pro will sound identical to the EX5/K7/Zen DAC v2.

No, there is no point in going further than this.