How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent?

[b7676]

And, you probably didn't do a proper level-matched, blind, ABX Test.

How about this analogy for the improbability against ABX'ing level matched with ears;
ABX a cesium and your quartz kitchen clock, but you only get one 'frame' per second to do it, and never directly against the other or gaplessly between the two.

 

[IAtaman]

I think you are right. You all seem to be ignoring the human factor, which is the most important factor when it comes to user experience, or perceiving music/audio/sounds and whatever. Because that's what we're talking about, experiencing music, right? There is no point in discussing two completely different categories of phenomena. I'm sure you'll have a great time together in your tech bubble (no offense).

I think you are right, it is all about the human factor. Cables and good DACs don't make any difference to sound. That does not mean people can not hear a difference.

 

[ahofer]

I think you are right. You all seem to be ignoring the human factor, which is the most important factor when it comes to user experience, or perceiving music/audio/sounds and whatever. Because that's what we're talking about, experiencing music, right? There is no point in discussing two completely different categories of phenomena. I'm sure you'll have a great time together in your tech bubble (no offense).

I disagree, that's the whole point. Once you do the research, you realize that you committed Fundamental Audiophile Attribution Error (attributing changes in your brain/room/differing volume levels to the equipment's design). Then you can focus on equipment/EQ/room treatment that actually make a difference at your ear, and spend the savings on music/concerts/hallucinogens/fancy chassis/whatever - the things that might durably enhance your listening experience.

No snark intended here - your approach seems like an extraordinarily costly error to me.

 

[Roland]

ASR has distilled hi-fi down to any dac or amp that has the right features or power, with Revel or Kef speakers and SVS subs. Job done, nothing more to see here. Why do people keep posting?

 

[Soria Moria]

ASR has distilled hi-fi down to any dac or amp that has the right features or power, with Revel or Kef speakers and SVS subs. Job done, nothing more to see here. Why do people keep posting?

Doesn't this thread make it obvious? But also this website isn't just 'help me decide what to buy' but also fuelled by an interest in simply testing products and claims.

 

[DonR]

ASR has distilled hi-fi down to any dac or amp that has the right features or power, with Revel or Kef speakers and SVS subs. Job done, nothing more to see here. Why do people keep posting?

Nope. Every choice is a series of compromises. Price, availability, support, features, etc. as well as performance. It is nice to have a a long list of options to choose from but that list is dynamic. Furthermore, no figures published by any manufacturer should be trusted until verified by a 3rd party.

 

[RayDunzl]

Wow, what a friendly crowd here! I see that I stepped into a wrong pub with a wrong team jersey on

Just wear one of these, like I do:

You'll be fine.

 

[Ken1951]

ASR has distilled hi-fi down to any dac or amp that has the right features or power, with Revel or Kef speakers and SVS subs. Job done, nothing more to see here. Why do people keep posting?

There's a very wide range of both speakers and electronics amongst the members here. A veeeery wide range. But the basic belief is in testing and to praise excellence in design.

 

[oleg87]

ASR has distilled hi-fi down to any dac or amp that has the right features or power, with Revel or Kef speakers and SVS subs. Job done, nothing more to see here. Why do people keep posting?

There are things that matter, things that don't matter, and this site discusses all of the above. I'm a headphone guy, and all headphones sound different. You're not going to find perfection when it comes to transducers or acoustics. But perfection (for all reasonable intents and purposes) is abundant and cheap when it comes to the electronics side of the equation. I haven't bought a DAC or amp in years because I have source gear that works well and that aspect of audiophilia holds very little interest for me beyond that (other than engaging with subjectivist silliness).

 

[ahofer]

ASR has distilled hi-fi down to any dac or amp that has the right features or power, with Revel or Kef speakers and SVS subs. Job done, nothing more to see here. Why do people keep posting?

That's weird, I thought we all worshipped at the altar of SINAD.

At any rate, this IS pretty close to the truth on DACs and amps, but you left out some important consumer considerations. One thing this place has clearly revealed is the lower and lower price points at which you can achieve electronics transparency and good speaker design. It also seems to be inspiring new AP/Klippel-designed models that follow the science on component and speaker design, which is great for the hobby and music enjoyment.

 

[unpluggged]

Bur Brown Wolfson DAC

What is this? Burr-Brown and Wolfson are two different former manufacturers that were acquired by TI and Cirrus Logic, respectively.

 

[Ricardus]

ASR has distilled hi-fi down to any dac or amp that has the right features or power, with Revel or Kef speakers and SVS subs. Job done, nothing more to see here. Why do people keep posting?

It really is that simple. Get some reasonably priced gear that tests well and your rig will sound as good as just about anyone's. It's not hard.

 

[electrolutz]

Or at least, in the collective imagination.

Okay, in the collective imagination... wow

But I can see it: There is another discussion about the sound of the different DAC chips (and how important is the circuit in this regard?).
But basically that's exactly what I don't want, I want a DAC that doesn't sound and serves as an EQ, that's exactly what I always ask myself: Does my audiophonics DAC sound or is it simply transparent?
My desire is to own one that is just transparent, end.
Unfortunately I don't know any people who use DACs, my HiFI friends are all vinyl freaks who own three turntables/preamplifiers rather than DACs, so I really only have experience with the DAC in my IotaVX and in the audiophonics, both of which sound in mine Ears not the same, but that doesn't help me

 

[Killingbeans]

Does my audiophonics DAC sound or is it simply transparent?

This one?:

Audiophonics RASPDAC MINI LCD KIT Review (Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audiophonics RASPDAC MINI LCD KIT Streamer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs 165,83 € or US $193 (excluding Raspberry Pi and power supply). As the name indicates, this is a streamer built on the popular Raspberry Pi small computer...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Look to me like it's perfectly "transparent" in any practical sense.

Personally I'd ditch that linear power supply, assuming it's an expensive one, and use the money on something that makes a difference
EDIT: Or maybe you're talking about the on-board regulators?

 

[kemmler3D]

I heard different sound from different DAC using same amp and speakers. Last time I used Bur Brown Wolfson DAC and now AKM AK. AK is more dynamic, but Wolfson is good on vocal/singer.

I am sure you've heard the difference, but 99.999% of the time these DAC / AMP differences are in the listener's ear, not the gear itself. It is beyond easy to produce "differences" that are merely psychological, in ourselves or others.

 

[electrolutz]

Dieses hier?:

Audiophonics RASPDAC MINI LCD KIT Review (Streamer)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Audiophonics RASPDAC MINI LCD KIT Streamer. It is on kind loan from a member and costs 165,83 € or US $193 (excluding Raspberry Pi and power supply). As the name indicates, this is a streamer built on the popular Raspberry Pi small computer...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Für mich sieht es so aus, als ob es vollkommen „transparent“ wäre. in jedem praktischen Sinne.

Persönlich würde ich das lineare Netzteil aufgeben, vorausgesetzt, es ist teuer, und das Geld für etwas verwenden, das einen Unterschied macht

Yes, exactly that one Thank you for your assessment
I always and basically buy everything second hand if I can, I don't see it as a permanent waste. This power supply was included and the price was good, so I didn't even think about it.

 

[VintageFlanker]

There is another discussion about the sound of the different DAC chips (and how important is the circuit in this regard?)

Implementation is as important at the chip itself. By the way, that's what is measured here : The final signal at the output. You can't bypass one or the other.

 

[electrolutz]

Implementation is as important at the chip itself. By the way, that's what is measured here : The final signal at the output. You can't bypass one or the other.

Of course that's what I thought, and that's exactly part of my confusion and my question: Would a different implementation make a difference compared to my audiophonics in terms of transparency?
I really like my stereo, I've never been so satisfied before, but since I got these horns I've been very satisfied with my hearing and the decision to give up my tube amplifier was a good step for me.

But better is the enemy of good And it's more of a technical one. Question that I unfortunately cannot answer. I read a lot, but unfortunately I always read the discussions about it.
And this is exactly the point that always confuses me

 

[kemmler3D]

Would a different implementation make a difference compared to my audiophonics in terms of transparency?

In all likelihood no.

Most DACs are able to output perfectly flat frequency response, and distortion and noise are below -80dB even in "bad" DACs.

Below that it becomes difficult to hear any artifacts even under challenging conditions. So if one implementation achieves -80DB and one achieves -90dB or -100dB, that shows better engineering practices, but not necessarily anything you will hear.

 

[electrolutz]

To make it short:
When people who have an idea about this, because they look at the topic from a technical point of view and understand it, say: No, with your DAC in the audiophonics implementation everything is "perfect", you will be with an SMSL xxxx or Toppinmg xxx, Gustard xxx.. .. don't get better transparency, at most other features (that I don't need) or just a different housing, then that's okay for me.

And then there's still the question: Is the DAC for the Raspi just as "good" as one that I would connect via USB, for example?