Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

[Thorsten Loesch]

Zen DAC Signature V2 is the best of the Zens?

I had no direct involvement with it. However based on the images floating around the DAC, Clock & Audio circuitry is unchanged, just the 8 Core XMOS has been changed for the 16 Core.

The channel imbalance at lower knob position is so annoying.

This was solved. It simply meant that 2/3rd of volume controls were screened out and afterwards sold on the open market at a discount.

The whole QC process doubled the cost of the appx 1USD (in volume) potentiometer, but the problem was pretty much eliminated.

I guess the extra dollar on a fairly skinny BOM was asking too much.

If it used a transparent chip based solution, this would be king of portables in terms of power (power without imbalance issues)

Well, I implemented this for what was meant to be the replacement of "nano" range with an intention to move these up in the range. The "Neo iDSD" & the X-Series (xDSD, xCAN and "Gryphon" which is largely a copy/paste making a single out from the xCAN & xDSD) are all designs in this "new line".

The Zen's were meant to partially reuse existing designs and form the lower end in a way that offered a meaningful alternative to the cheapest MIC copy/pasta jobs below the x/NEO and the then still drawing board level next generation replacements for the "micro" line.

Thus a Zen DAC "signature" is pretty much an iDAC 2 with actually some practical improvements and the "non signature" Zen just misses that "fancy capacitors".

The Zen CAN and Zen Phono are more redesigns/ground-up redesigns, while the "One" is largely the nano "One". Again, the "One" is not directly my design (if largely a copy/paste job from a design of mine), I would have used the same DAC Analogue stage from the Zen DAC possibly with additional upgrades (discrete Class A buffer).

But in general the Zen's are the direct descendents of the various nano's and micro's while the X/Neo was meant to represent the future in around 2016 (there is always a lag between actual development and release in iFi)... I still have a prototype around somewhere that was a xDSD (core DAC/Audio etc) in a non chassis with 3D printed panels and knobs. It was designed as replacement for the nano with 199...249 USD target price.

Thor

 

[Gringoaudio1]

I don’t mean to make Mr. Loesch defend everything iFi has ever done but the following makes me dismiss them into the Audioquest category.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

View attachment 255145View attachment 255146I don’t mean to make Mr. Loesch defend everything iFi has ever done but the following makes me dismiss them into the Audioquest category.

Mr. Loesch, please, if you want to address me using my surname.

I do not defend the current pricing of iFI products.

I had nothing to do with "designing" the USB 3 cables or the mains cables.

I am aware what is inside the USB Cables and do not use them myself, even for free.

I do use earlier and already overpriced USB 2.0 Cable which does have a point, but should have sold for 50 USD, not 100USD+. The main improvement over "generics" are tight adherence to USB specification which is important of USB Audio Class 2.0, multiple ferrites for filtering common mode noise and very low resistance GND & Vbus which help with bus powered devices.

The mains cables actually are designed in a way that I do not think is a good idea, in terms of rejecting interference.

I did design the "noise cancellation" module applied to one of the mains cables. It is a system based on solid electronic engineering and actually works for the purpose it was designed to do.

However, seeing how it is applied in this cable, it is nothing I would have done like that, I would have made a dedicated in line module with additional filtering and I would probably have integrated the "DC-Blocker" and the "Safe Earth Lifter" into this as well, as these help with a lot of issues people have..

Audioquest? Yes, I have a feeling that iFi post my departure is heading heavily into this direction.

Thor

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Mr. Loesch, please, if you want to address me using my surname.

I do not defend the current pricing of iFI products.

I had nothing to do with "designing" the USB 3 cables or the mains cables.

I am aware what is inside the USB Cables and do not use them myself, even for free.

I do use earlier and already overpriced USB 2.0 Cable which does have a point, but should have sold for 50 USD, not 100USD+. The main improvement over "generics" are tight adherence to USB specification which is important of USB Audio Class 2.0, multiple ferrites for filtering common mode noise and very low resistance GND & Vbus which help with bus powered devices.

The mains cables actually are designed in a way that I do not think is a good idea, in terms of rejecting interference.

I did design the "noise cancellation" module applied to one of the mains cables. It is a system based on solid electronic engineering and actually works for the purpose it was designed to do.

However, seeing how it is applied in this cable, it is nothing I would have done like that, I would have made a dedicated in line module with additional filtering and I would probably have integrated the "DC-Blocker" and the "Safe Earth Lifter" into this as well, as these help with a lot of issues people have..

Audioquest? Yes, I have a feeling that iFi post my departure is heading heavily into this direction.

Thor

Thorsten,
You used a pseudonym on name as your login avatar on diyaudio years ago but also signed with your real name. Remind me what that pseudonym was? And why you used it? Thanks. Just for old-times sake. You gave me some advice on an inverted gainclone. I decided to choose my own feedback resistor values and I also ended up picking up some RF. Small ceramic caps at the inputs drained the RF away. I can’t remember what I asked you or what exact advice you gave me. Can probably find it in diyaudio archives though. I remember it as being very generous that the guru of diyaudio gave little old nobody me some personal help.
I did use ‘Mr. Loesch’ in my previous post. I am not understanding your first sentence in your last post.
Greg Olsen

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

Thorsten,
You used a pseudonym on name as your login avatar on diyaudio years ago but also signed with your real name.

Kuei Yan Wang (a phonetic play on King Kaiyanwang from the Japanese Manga/Anime Sazan Eyes (3x3 Eyes). Keiyanwang is basically your ultimate good boy gone very, very bad.

I remember it as being very generous that the guru of diyaudio gave little old nobody me some personal help.

Funny, I never think of myself as some kind of Guru, but rather as a little old nobody who occasionally might be able to help a little.

I did use ‘Mr. Loesch’ in my previous post. I am not understanding your first sentence in your last post.

Indeed, you did. Due to the line wrapping I only read:

"Loesch defend everything iFi has ever done..."

My bad, appy polly logie.

Thor

 

[Reynaldo]

@Thorsten Loesch

I don't know if you had a hand in these Enhancers, but for me they worked.

When I used the M1SDAC with the Mac mini via USB, sometimes it lost the signal with the computer, regardless of the cable, I tested it with several.
With Windows computers and the problem did not happen.

Using iSilencer or the iPurifier3, the M1SDAC works perfectly with the Mac mini.

I had the iSilencer for a long time and then I bought the iPurifier3.
Using one or the other the DAC works perfect with the Mac.

It seems that some DACs have this problem with Mac computers, but I don't know why.

 

[Thorsten Loesch]

I don't know if you had a hand in these Enhancers, but for me they worked.

Yes, they work because they are based on fairly basic principles and are rooted in absolutely solid science.

The iPurifier (2 and on) is essentially a USB-Repater with a "phy" that has consirably greater tolerance to "bad USB signals" than what is commonly in USB IC's used for Audio.

As USB Audio Class & USB Audio Class 2 use isochronous streaming, data errors are not corrected. For UAC this generally not a problem as it runs at 12Mbps, meaning even even wet shoelaces can probably carry a good signal.

UAC2 MUST run at high speed (480Mbps) even when just streaming 44.1/16, so the system is just that much more error prone.

When I used the M1SDAC with the Mac mini via USB, sometimes it lost the signal with the computer, regardless of the cable, I tested it with several.
With Windows computers and the problem did not happen.

Yes, multiple apple products had "bad USB ports". Technically they are outside USB spec. But who will call out apple when the antennagate response was " then don't hold it that way"?

It seems that some DACs have this problem with Mac computers, but I don't know why.

Accumulation of edge case tolerances on an overly critical system.

If anyone were to ask me, I'd recommend to use UAC over UAC2 if the 96/24 limit is ok. Sadly all USB Audio Chips I know these days use UAC as fallback from UAC2 and only support 48/16 (not even 44.1/16) so this not possible.

The other option would be to in effect integrate something like the iPurifier USB into the device. But that costs money and engineering effort, doesn't make the SINAD better in the ideal case and delivers no obvious benefit to a manufacturer.

So I can see why my inbox is not flooded by Audio makers seeking my help to integrate such tech into their DAC's. Not that I'm complaining. It actually works great in industrial systems and gets me paid.

Thor

 

[Vasile 76]

I returned a Topping E50 that plays intermittently via toslink. I liked the sound. Now I have 3 DACs in mind. Ifi zen one signature/ Cambridge magic 200m/ ProJect pre box S2. I have Marantz pm 6006+Dali Oberon 3. I'm tempted by the price of Ifi but I don't know how it sounds in my system. I used to have Cambridge magic 100. If anyone can help me. Thanks.

 

[Veri]

I returned a Topping E50 that plays intermittently via toslink. I liked the sound. Now I have 3 DACs in mind. Ifi zen one signature/ Cambridge magic 200m/ ProJect pre box S2. I have Marantz pm 6006+Dali Oberon 3. I'm tempted by the price of Ifi but I don't know how it sounds in my system.

Have you considered E30 ii? It should have compatibility maximised to prevent those intermittent stutters. And definitely doesn't break the bank..

 

[ahofer]

I returned a Topping E50 that plays intermittently via toslink. I liked the sound. Now I have 3 DACs in mind. Ifi zen one signature/ Cambridge magic 200m/ ProJect pre box S2. I have Marantz pm 6006+Dali Oberon 3. I'm tempted by the price of Ifi but I don't know how it sounds in my system. I used to have Cambridge magic 100. If anyone can help me. Thanks.

That sounds like a functional problem with the Topping. I doubt the three units would be distinguishable from sound alone. I have the ProJect in my desktop system and it's compact and works well. I've had so-so quality experience with IFI (I have a pro-DSD kicking around and the streaming implementation is awful, but it's sort of fun to play with the filters)

If you want to buy the Pro-DSD cheap, DM me. It's mint. I would say it's good if you feed it from a separate streamer (like the ProJect) but not for native streaming unless wired, and then maybe not even. It is Roon Ready, if I remember correctly.

 

[Vasile 76]

That sounds like a functional problem with the Topping. I doubt the three units would be distinguishable from sound alone. I have the ProJect in my desktop system and it's compact and works well. I've had so-so quality experience with IFI (I have a pro-DSD kicking around and the streaming implementation is awful, but it's sort of fun to play with the filters)

If you want to buy the Pro-DSD cheap, DM me. It's mint. I would say it's good if you feed it from a separate streamer (like the ProJect) but not for native streaming unless wired, and then maybe not even. It is Roon Ready, if I remember correctly.

Do you advise me to get ProJect pre box S2? Is it more dynamic?

 

[Vasile 76]

Have you considered E30 ii? It should have compatibility maximised to prevent those intermittent stutters. And definitely doesn't break the bank..

I understood that the Topping E30 ii is a bit flat in sound and bright. I would like something more musical.

 

[ahofer]

Do you advise me to get ProJect pre box S2? Is it more dynamic?

They all sound the same. You shouldn't expect dramatic differences, or really any audible differences, between properly designed DACs. Just choose one from the left hand side of Amir's list that has the features you want. You can go further right than this sub-selection and still find the same audible signal quality. If you want a custom-distorted DAC sound, with more jitter or poorer frequency response you might have to spend a lot of money (PS Audio, e.g.).

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but that's what research suggests so far. Here's an exhaustive discussion.

Serious Question: How can DAC's have a SOUND SIGNATURE if they measure as transparent? Are that many confused?

I know there are people out there that think cables affect sound, which is much worse, but there really is no response to something like that, but just to smile and nod. But what about people who talk about DACS as if they were headphone drivers or speakers, and talk about the SOUNDSTAGE...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Reynaldo]

I returned a Topping E50 that plays intermittently via toslink. I liked the sound. Now I have 3 DACs in mind. Ifi zen one signature/ Cambridge magic 200m/ ProJect pre box S2. I have Marantz pm 6006+Dali Oberon 3. I'm tempted by the price of Ifi but I don't know how it sounds in my system. I used to have Cambridge magic 100. If anyone can help me. Thanks.

Forget this question of SINAD numbers.
Buy an iFi and be happy.
I have the ZEN One Signature with an extremely nice sound.

ZEN One Signature by iFi audio - The hi-res home audio hub for all your digital devices.

Be at one with your sound. The hi-res home audio hub for all your digital devices.

ifi-audio.com

 

[Reynaldo]

I understood that the Topping E30 ii is a bit flat in sound and bright. I would like something more musical.

If you don't need Bluetooth and are going to use USB, buy the ZEN DAC Signature V2, it will be even cheaper.

ZEN DAC Signature V2 by iFi audio - A pure performance desktop DAC from iFi audio.

Even purer performance ZEN DAC Signature V2 brings you an even purer performing home DAC from iFi audio. The ultimate pure performance for detailed listening.

ifi-audio.com

 

[ahofer]

Forget this question of SINAD numbers.
Buy an iFi and be happy.
I have the ZEN One Signature with an extremely nice sound.

He was asking about "dynamics", which are even less likely to be different between DACs than noise and distortion.

What do you mean "nice sound"? Does it have a sound signature? Or do you mean nice like any other DAC?

 

[Purité Audio]

Their products all seem a little Iffy.
Keith

 

[Reynaldo]

He was asking about "dynamics", which are even less likely to be different between DACs than noise and distortion.

What do you mean "nice sound"? Does it have a sound signature? Or do you mean nice like any other DAC?

Pleasant sound is one that pleases the listener.
Please don't ask me to prove it scientifically.

 

[Veri]

I understood that the Topping E30 ii is a bit flat in sound and bright. I would like something more musical.

There's no reason to think so. Anyway just to check the increased toslink compatibility you could order one on Amazon and just return it if you don't like it. But it should be similar enough than E50.. I recommend trying it out.

You can even try ordering an iFi along with it and keep the one that seems to work most reliably..

 

[steve64]

Of course it is. As far as I can tell, the only reason to buy one DAC over another is to maintain the look of your particular system.