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Sennheiser HD 598 SE* Review (headphone)

ezra_s

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Open them up and remove the sticky backed foam blocking the ear cups from venting properly.

I was talking about GSP 500, which are open, perhaps I expressed myself incorrectly.
 

dpuopolo

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[Yes,TE="ezra_s, post: 834786, member: 14271"]I was talking about GSP 500, which are open, perhaps I expressed myself incorrectly.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and part of the vent is blocked by this sticky foam. Remove it. That is the mod that turns a 600 into a 650.
 

KiyPhi

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I'll start by saying i agree with you and that yeah, Harman showed people still have their own preference and that especially for the bass it's good practice to adjust to what you like. But getting to diffuse field is fairly simple with the two filters Harman let the users adjust. The starting point is more or less DF so just removing the filters should do the trick. As for crins target don't think you can get there with the filters, treble might be doable but i think for the bass can't get the right shape.
Isn't the shape is diffuse field's ear gain different than Harman's? I thought it was a bit more narrow and had a notch and peak in the upper treble. I don't think you can do that with the given filters.
 
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dpuopolo

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I was talking about GSP 500, which are open, perhaps I expressed myself incorrectly.
Yes, and part of the openings is blocked by this sticky foam. Open up the ear cups and remove it. It's not in the higher priced headphones; Sennheiser puts it there on purpose to degrade the sound. A Sennheiser 650 is basically a 600 with the sticky foam removed. This is a well known Sennheiser mod.
 
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JohnYang1997

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Hey, you don't know where I can get Tilt Tone Control from EqualiserAPO? So given what Olive says about Tone Control and the Circle of Confusion, then I think it would be pretty cool if I could find a Tilt EQ Filter in EqualiserAPO, but I can't find any that would match the effect in the following pic that I circled in red:
View attachment 138884
Anyone got any ideas on how to implement that? It's not a simple High Shelf Filter for instance.
It's a high Q low shelf starting at low frequency and a low Q high shelf also starting at low frequency.
I personally don't necessarily think the 250hz ish is the best/right frequency. I prefer 500hz for low and 6khz for high. Plus a 3khz low Q peaking filter.
 

raistlin65

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Maybe we can wrap up this discussion by linking to the actual presentation from Sean Olive of Harman:

https://www.listeninc.com/wp/media/Perception_and_-Measurement_of_Headphones_Sean_Olive.pdf

The bass and treble controls were provided to control subjects to try to determine listener preferences based on different demographic factors. In that context they were used to guide the creation of the Harman target itself. However, Olive also says:

View attachment 138836

What I think is important about that slide is the flawed notion of the "ideal headphone" as a "moving target." Because of difference in user preference, the conclusion should be that there is likely no such thing as an ideal headphone target. But that's not as suitable for the marketing benefits of promoting headphones that use HTR. lol

That being said, by design, this research study was only designed to look at user adjustment of HTR bass and treble. It does not examine how users might have responded to bass and treble adjustments that shifted the response somewhat closer to some other listener preference response curves.
 

infinitesymphony

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What I think is important about that slide is the flawed notion of the "ideal headphone" as a "moving target." Because of difference in user preference, the conclusion should be that there is likely no such thing as an ideal headphone target. But that's not as suitable for the marketing benefits of promoting headphones that use HTR. lol
I think Olive and you are both saying the same thing, that if you're designing a product without EQ controls all you can do is use a target built from averages to please the largest number of people. There's no way to account for differences after the fact without additional controls.

That being said, by design, this research study was only designed to look at user adjustment of HTR bass and treble. It does not examine how users might have responded to bass and treble adjustments that shifted the response somewhat closer to some other listener preference response curves.
Are you saying the users in the Harman study incorrectly picked their own adjustments and that if they were provided with a prebuilt alternative to what they selected themselves, they might like it better? Or are you saying that the allowed adjustments were too basic to approximate other preference curves? I could see both cases being possible, just want to make sure I'm following your thinking.
 

Robbo99999

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It's a high Q low shelf starting at low frequency and a low Q high shelf also starting at low frequency.
I personally don't necessarily think the 250hz ish is the best/right frequency. I prefer 500hz for low and 6khz for high. Plus a 3khz low Q peaking filter.
Do you know specifically the values for the High Shelf? I tried experimenting and I really don't think it's a High Shelf, even a low Q one.....in fact as soon as I made my last post I started experimenting with Low Q High Shelf, and if it was a really Low Q High Shelf you'd have to set the frequency really high otherwise it would effect the points below 300Hz. Also, High Shelf (& Low Shelf) have a period of slant and then flatten out, the effect I circled in the pic is just a tilt. The Low Shelf bass is easy, that is indeed a Low Shelf.
 

infinitesymphony

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Do you know specifically the values for the High Shelf? I tried experimenting and I really don't think it's a High Shelf, even a low Q one.....in fact as soon as I made my last post I started experimenting with Low Q High Shelf, and if it was a really Low Q High Shelf you'd have to set the frequency really high otherwise it would effect the points below 300Hz. Also, High Shelf (& Low Shelf) have a period of slant and then flatten out, the effect I circled in the pic is just a tilt. The Low Shelf bass is easy, that is indeed a Low Shelf.
It doesn't really matter, it's not like Harman were prescribing their particular curves as the best bass and treble adjustments. They just wanted to provide some kind of controls to evaluate.
 

Robbo99999

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It doesn't really matter, it's not like Harman were prescribing their particular curves as the best bass and treble adjustments. They just wanted to provide some kind of controls to evaluate.
I'm just trying to envisage some tone controls to be used alongside a Harman Curve EQ. Looking at that slide perhaps a seesaw type "straight-line" tilt with the centre of the seesaw being around 300Hz, that looks like it would marry up quite well with the spread of the treble tone adjustment (the bit I circled in the slide)....and I wouldn't be interested in tweaking the bass level directly as I already have the Low Shelf of the Harman Curve in my EQ and I like the bass level, just I think it would be interesting to subtly but widely change the tilt of the whole frequency response (the general tone). Somehow creating this "seesaw" at around 275Hz looks like it could be good. When I talk about the "seesaw" I'm not describing the shape of the target curve, but I'm describing the shape of the EQ filter. How'd you put in a "seesaw" (tilt) filter, I don't think they exist in EqualiserAPO.

EDIT: I think I've found a very low Q High Shelf Filter that can do the job of a "Tilt Filter". Here's how it changes the HE4XX frequency response as an example (and the turqoise shaded area is the "tilt filter" effect increasing as you go up the frequency range), so the "Tilt Filter" is High Shelf 982Hz, Q0.2 :
Tilt Filter HE4XX.jpg
 
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raistlin65

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I think Olive and you are both saying the same thing, that if you're designing a product without EQ controls all you can do is use a target built from averages to please the largest number of people. There's no way to account for differences after the fact without additional controls.

No. I'm talking about the conclusion that "The ideal headphone target curve is a moving target..." I suspect someone doing academic scientific research wouldn't make that claim, but would instead conclude that there is "no ideal headphone target curve." But of course Harman wants people to think that their curve represents the closest to an ideal curve. Better for marketing.

Are you saying the users in the Harman study incorrectly picked their own adjustments and that if they were provided with a prebuilt alternative to what they selected themselves, they might like it better? Or are you saying that the allowed adjustments were too basic to approximate other preference curves? I could see both cases being possible, just want to make sure I'm following your thinking.

Right. The tone controls in the study were preset by design. So the study only tells us how people adjusted bass and treble when presented with those specific preset controls. It is what it is. It doesn't tell us what users would have chosen when presented with a wider range of choices.
 

infinitesymphony

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No. I'm talking about the conclusion that "The ideal headphone target curve is a moving target..." I suspect someone doing academic scientific research wouldn't make that claim, but would instead conclude that there is "no ideal headphone target curve." But of course Harman wants people to think that their curve represents the closest to an ideal curve. Better for marketing.
Harman-designed equipment like Revel speakers and headphones like the AKG K371 and Samsung Galaxy Buds do appear to be receiving praise from listeners with different backgrounds. If the goal of their research was to sell more products by pleasing more people, it seems like they were right.

Right. The tone controls in the study were preset by design. So the study only tells us how people adjusted bass and treble when presented with those specific preset controls. It is what it is. It doesn't tell us what users would have chosen when presented with a wider range of choices.
That's true, though it's also possible that with more or different choices they would still arrive at roughly the same results. Only one way to find out!
 

KiyPhi

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Hey, you don't know where I can get Tilt Tone Control from EqualiserAPO? So given what Olive says about Tone Control and the Circle of Confusion, then I think it would be pretty cool if I could find a Tilt EQ Filter in EqualiserAPO, but I can't find any that would match the effect in the following pic that I circled in red:
View attachment 138884
Anyone got any ideas on how to implement that? It's not a simple High Shelf Filter for instance.
"High shelf filter (slope in dB)", frequency at 2500Hz, Q value of 3/3.5, gain value adjusted to taste. That's an approximate of the treble controls.
 

Robbo99999

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"High shelf filter (slope in dB)", frequency at 2500Hz, Q value of 3/3.5, gain value adjusted to taste. That's an approximate of the treble controls.
I don't think it's that, I tried to interpret what you were saying into filters and came up with 2 options:
A.jpg

B.jpg

The first one looks closer, but it's certainly not the second one. Still, the first one is not the same as the Olive tone controls. I think I've decided on the general tone control I'm gonna try, I already showed it in this post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-hd-598-se-review-headphone.24603/post-835002
It creates an almost straight line slope from 100Hz, so effectively tilts the entire frequency spectrum in a straight line tilt, which is probably perfect to just change overall tonality.

EDIT: tried my tone control that I describe at the post I linked in the previous paragraph, and I find it very effective. For instance, Red Hot Chili Pepper songs I find are generally recorded too bright, so my tone control filter fixes that with just -1 or -2dB on the Gain for that filter, you could probably even try it with just 0.5dB increments. You can easily notice 1dB changes in that filter because it tilts the whole frequency response from 100Hz upwards. High Shelf at 982Hz, Q 0.2 -> that's the filter I urge you to give it a try as a tone control. (that's naught point two for the Q filter, it's a very low Q filter!). May as well include a pic of my tone control filter in action:
Tilt Filter HE4XX.jpg
 
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Dealux

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It's statistically unlikely that earpads with different size and materials will not alter the FR in some way hence why this review is not really useful for people who own or want to buy a unit with stock pads. This fact is especially frustrating when you own an older headphone and can't find original pads anymore.
 

KiyPhi

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I don't think it's that, I tried to interpret what you were saying into filters and came up with 2 options:
View attachment 139000
View attachment 139001
The first one looks closer, but it's certainly not the second one. Still, the first one is not the same as the Olive tone controls. I think I've decided on the general tone control I'm gonna try, I already showed it in this post: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-hd-598-se-review-headphone.24603/post-835002
It creates an almost straight line slope from 100Hz, so effectively tilts the entire frequency spectrum in a straight line tilt, which is probably perfect to just change overall tonality.

EDIT: tried my tone control that I describe at the post I linked in the previous paragraph, and I find it very effective. For instance, Red Hot Chili Pepper songs I find are generally recorded too bright, so my tone control filter fixes that with just -1 or -2dB on the Gain for that filter, you could probably even try it with just 0.5dB increments. You can easily notice 1dB changes in that filter because it tilts the whole frequency response from 100Hz upwards. High Shelf at 982Hz, Q 0.2 -> that's the filter I urge you to give it a try as a tone control. (that's naught point two for the Q filter, it's a very low Q filter!). May as well include a pic of my tone control filter in action:
View attachment 139007
The attached file looks pretty accurate to me. REW probably doesn't use the same settings.

Edit: Looks like you selected a HS with a predefined slope (12dB) where the settings I am talking about are where you pick the slope. The last one you posted might work if you change the Q to 3.5.
 

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Robbo99999

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The attached file looks pretty accurate to me. REW probably doesn't use the same settings.

Edit: Looks like you selected a HS with a predefined slope (12dB) where the settings I am talking about are where you pick the slope. The last one you posted might work if you change the Q to 3.5.
(definitely doesn't work when changing Q to 3.5. High Q is not what's needed for that filter.) Thanks though, it doesn't matter, I've devised a Linear Tone Control across most of the frequency range as seen in my previous post.....works very well for compensating for "Circle of Confusion" in music production.

EDIT: the one in your pic looks ok for a Treble Tone Control, I'll give you that for sure. I think though a Tone Control for dealing with "Circle of Confusion" should be as linear as possible and across as much of the frequency range as possible....filter which I found in my last post.
 

KiyPhi

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(definitely doesn't work when changing Q to 3.5. High Q is not what's needed for that filter.) Thanks though, it doesn't matter, I've devised a Linear Tone Control across most of the frequency range as seen in my previous post.....works very well for compensating for "Circle of Confusion" in music production.

EDIT: the one in your pic looks ok for a Treble Tone Control, I'll give you that for sure. I think though a Tone Control for dealing with "Circle of Confusion" should be as linear as possible and across as much of the frequency range as possible....filter which I found in my last post.
Read what I was responding to. Your first image had a slope defined already "HS 12dB" which stands for high shelf with a slope of 12dB. That won't work because you need a slope of 3/3.5dB. REW handles their filters differently so trying to replicate what I said there won't work. You asked how to get the filters from the slides in EQ APO. I gave you that answer. Use the high shelf with the slope option and enter it like I said. That will get you the tone control from slides like you asked.
 

Robbo99999

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Read what I was responding to. Your first image had a slope defined already "HS 12dB" which stands for high shelf with a slope of 12dB. That won't work because you need a slope of 3/3.5dB. REW handles their filters differently so trying to replicate what I said there won't work. You asked how to get the filters from the slides in EQ APO. I gave you that answer. Use the high shelf with the slope option and enter it like I said. That will get you the tone control from slides like you asked.
REW doesn't handle filters differently, although they might be called something different. Thanks for your help though, I've found the tone control I was after.
 

Doodski

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I completed setting up a desktop pooder yesterday and installed Equalizer APO and Peace equalizer and so I set the EQ up for my HD 598SR by ear to what I think sounds fun and involving. Here is my EQ settings compared to @amirm frequency response and EQ settings.
index.php

index.php

peace eq setrtings.png
 
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