REW measurements and musings

[stringer]

Hey folks,
I am trying to decide if I need a subwoofer or three.
So, upon suggestion from some kind members here I have started playing around with REW to get some baseline measurements for what my system is doing.

I thought I would share my experience here.

I am running REW on my HP laptop Windows 11 laptop out via USB into a Rotel RA1572mk2 integrated amp. From that out to Martin Logan SL3s. I have the electrostatic panels hooked up to the A speaker terminals and the woofers hooked up to the B speaker terminals. I am using an Anthem Arc microphone that came with an Anthem MRX 520 AVR.

Usually I listen to Amazon music via a Fire Stick through the TV with an optical hookup to the Rotel. I also use an AM/FM tuner, Bluetooth, and a turntable as sources. I am thinking about getting a Wiim Pro streamer and a MiniDSP so that I can do equalization. I am not really interested in hooking up a computer or server full time to the amp. Otherwise I would consider Equalizer APO.
Here is the Electrostat panels by themselves

This is just the woofers

This is both together

Where should I go from here?
What other of these graphs should I be looking at.
I am just getting started on reading about equalization, room treatments, speaker placements, etc.

Any wisdom or advice is appreciated.

Thanks!!

 

[Matias]

First use Var smoothing, a 50 dB Y-axis and log X-axis to present the measurements better. More standardized way so too say.

Also WiiM Pro now has PEQ with up to 4 bands, which can fix the most critical issues like room modes. Although yours look pretty good already.

 

[RayDunzl]

Looks like you might not need a sub...

Also looks to me like your microphone was not centered and/or equidistant from each speaker here, assuming both left and right speakers were playing:

If it was a single speaker, maybe some big reflections interfering with the direct sound.


Centered and a foot or so off center here at home, both speakers playing:

 

[stringer]

Looks like you might not need a sub...

Also looks to me like your microphone was not centered and/or equidistant from each speaker here, assuming both left and right speakers were playing:

View attachment 314986

If it was a single speaker, maybe some big reflections interfering with the direct sound.


Centered and a foot or so off center here at home, both speakers playing:

View attachment 314987

It is going to be difficult to get things centered and/or deal with major reflections. I don't get a whole lot of flexibility in where the speakers get located. I have a large open concept living room / dining room / kitchen / entry foyer. The TV is in the only spot on the wall without windows or stairs or kitchen cabinets or whatever in the way. And the speakers go on either side of the TV. Which means one ends up in the corner. And the dipole nature of the electrostats, there is a lot of reflected energy. And there are two couches / listening positions. Which means I don't get a lot of flexibility with how the speakers get toed. They are set up basically to make sure that TV/movie dialog is as clear as it can from both couches. It sounds good in the room, but it will be difficult to measure in any kind of symmetric way with both channels together. I measured them separate as well, next time I will post those measurements as well. I probably also won't get a whole lot of ability to do room treatments either. So if there are any big issues that need to be addressed it will have to be through EQ. I don't have any major issues with our setup. It works great for movies and music. I just sometimes wonder, especially when we are watching movies if we would get more of an immersive feeling with a sub. And then if I get a sub I want to make sure I get one that will actually make a positive difference. And that I put it in a place that will make a positive difference. Sub placement is actually something I would have some flexibility with. And so then I need some kind of EQ, which has me leaning toward a miniDSP maybe down the road.

First use Var smoothing, a 50 dB Y-axis and log X-axis to present the measurements better. More standardized way so too say.

Also WiiM Pro now has PEQ with up to 4 bands, which can fix the most critical issues like room modes. Although yours look pretty good already.

Cool, I will keep those criteria in mind for future measurements.

 

[stringer]

I got a Wiim. Been playing with the parametric eq. Looks like they are going to put out the 10 band soon so I thought I would publish my 4 band solution and further musings based on my reading and researching and experimenting and listening.

Signal Chain
HP Laptop USB out to SaiYin USB to Optical Converter
Optical to Wiim Pro
Optical to Rotel RA1572-MkII
Biwired to Martin Logan SL3's

I am using the Wiim as a preamp for streaming (Amazon Prime Music and TV) mostly, so my goal is to get the 4-band parametric set up as well as I can with what I have learned over the last year of playing around with REW and reading this forum. For posterity sake before wiim drops the 10 band stuff. And to document the journey.

Just trust me, that I am doing the best I can with the room and such. Good news is that reflections don't matter too much when you are sitting pretty close to some giant electrostats with 10" woofers (crossover is about 250hz and well executed as far as I can measure). One interesting thing I have found about mic position is that electrostats are really beamy on the vertical dispersion plane. It is actually much worse than the horizontal beaminess. Since you have giant ten inch woofers on the bottom and 48 inch panels that generally radiate sound with the lower frequencies coming from the bottom and the higher frequencies from the top. Where your head position is vertically matters a lot for the frequency response. I have tried to alternate between playing with moving mic method (mmm) focusing on pink noise and full range sweeps with moving the mic around the listening position and averaging.

Horizontal dispersion across the couch that is the main 3 listening positions is actually easier to deal with than the vertical dispersion of short person vs tall person, sitting up vs lying down position. I have had these speakers for 15 years now and would never give them up, but I have never measured them or thought about frequency response until the last year, so this is just something interesting to me as I have started to measure and think about it. I use the moving mic method (MMM) pink noise generator thing to cross validate the results from my PEQ filtering.

Anyway, here is where we are with no adjustments.

I am not going to pretend to know how to analyze what any of that means exactly. But I have get that I should make it smoother. And that first 50 hz boom is the most problematic thing. I experimented with several different speaker positions, toe in toe out. It did get slightly better if I moved them away from the wall. But my partner only has so much leniency there. So we must EQ. Other than that I picked the biggest peaks.

I found that peak narrow notch type filters to deal with the biggest peaks had the best impacts on my two measurement tests and A/B comparison turning the equalization on/off on wiim. I am by no means done. I am looking forward to Wiim releasing the 10 band soon. But I am happy to have learned how to make my treasured heirloom, the SL3's even better. Thanks for all your help. And I welcome any suggestions on improvement. So far, I am super happy the combination of the wiim with the rotel driving the ML's. I was skeptical how much targeted EQ could help, but after seeing and hearing the improvements, I am a believer. I still love my vinyl, and I will probably next invest in a mini-dsp so I can have more control of how I do my dsp stuff.

Here is the corrected var and psycoacoustic. I decided not to pay too much attention to the big nulls at 70 and 90 hz. Also the treble is better than it looks. I am using an Anthem ARC mic with no calibration file. And with the beamy vertical dispersion of the ESLs, if I move the mic up 6 inches it drastically improves the high frequency stuff. One of the reasons I initially wanted to learn about measuring audio stuff was because I had read on the Martin Logan owner's forum about how ESLs lose the ability to play high frequencies and I wanted to make sure mine were still working. It turns out that they are working at least as good as my partner and I's aging ears.

Here is the comparison shot with just the psychoacoustic

Subjectively, the bass is still strong through the 10" woofers. Good frequency response down below 30hz. However, it doesn't seem as boomy. You can turn it up louder with less distortion and room reverb. But at the same time you don't feel like you are missing bass response or TV dialogue if you don't have it turned up so damned loud.



Here is the MMM cross validation with psychoacoustic smoothing.