The DAC is part of the signal chain and shouldn't sound good or bad. If a DAC sounds different when level matched that means there is something wrong with it.
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Review and Measurements of Wyred4Sound DAC-2v2 SE DAC
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
The DAC is part of the signal chain and shouldn't sound good or bad. If a DAC sounds different when level matched that means there is something wrong with it.
There are a lot of smart people out there (smarter than me)...
In the context of a DAC:
What's not being measured?
Or more to the point, what's there (in the electrical output) that's not measurable?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #123
We don't need to because there are dacs already built with state-of-the-art performance at many price points starting at $99 and going up to thousands.
The owner has not done any controlled testing. The measurements are reliable. Listening tests results without controls, not so much.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
I've been toying with the idea on more than one occasion, but the realities of life has a tendency to steamroll me before I get much further.
Besides, that argument can be shoved in the face of just about any kind of criticism without actually proving anything.
If I was rear ended in a Ford Pinto in the 70's and my fuel tank exploded, I wouldn't be happy if the Ford executives just went: "Why don't you start building your own car?"
If that's the case, and low THD+N thereby was never the goal of the design, then why on earth was the ES9038PRO picked as the core chip? It completely baffles me
Why not just build an R2R DAC from dirt cheap 5% resistors and get tons of that wonderful distortion?
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JRG1488
Member
Yes it is another box of audiophile buzzwords, with little resources spent on the actual engineering. But audiophiles are more interested in ticking off there list of buzzwords than actual objective performance anyway this product is what the target market it demanding, which is probably why the subjective reviews for this product are so good.
Nango
Major Contributor
Years ago I swapped all 3 fuses that cost me up to 15% (!!!) the headamp itself but didn't hear any difference. This I remember well was my very first big disappointment with that kind of "enhancements".
OP
- Thread Starter
- #128
So I did some subjective listening tests. I grouped the Wyred4sound Dac 2V2 SE with my Topping DX3 Pro in Roon so they play in sync. I hooked up the (RCA) unbalanced output of the DX3 Pro to Massdrop THX AAA 789. And to give more of a benefit of doubt, I used XLR connection from Dac 2V2 SE to the THX 789. This then allowed me to switch between them using the input switch on the THX 789. I matched levels using Audio Precision.
I then went through my reference clips across many genres. There is no audible difference. Matching levels is key. I can make either DAC sound better by increasing its volume.
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
I remember believing all kinds of pseudoscience nonsense early on in my learning process, but "luckily" I've always been too broke to be able to waste money on any of them. Especially before I got my education and started working with real life electronics. I probably still have a few (if not a lot of) skeletons in the closet, but I suspect this forum will help me eliminate most of them.
Two major red flags though that make every fiber in my technician body flinch:
'Audiophile' power cables and fuses
Any company that produces and/or utilizes any of those two things does not deserve to be taken seriously in my book.
(Yes, I'm probably stating the obvious...)
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JBNY
Member
So the question becomes how poorly does it have to measure to sound different. I've found that matching levels and using a headphone amp, the same one as you are using, all of the DAC I have seem to sound the same too.
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Well we'll need representative examples of discrete and something with those early uA741 op amps in them.
That is a really good question. One I'd hope could be answered.
Small deviations of frequency response can be heard. Some alternate filters are heard either this way or with the rise in some imaging contamination. FR is heard with fractions of a db over a couple octaves or more. So some fairly small tilts of FR at either extreme can give a little warmer or cooler character. Not necessarily heard easily until the FR changes get larger. Noise levels are going to be heard maybe around -70 db. Some gear with modulated noise floors might be heard this way. Distortion depends on particulars and is probably very hard to hear below 1% with most music. Some kinds of high level problems will get masked by the main signal. So its not an easy question to answer even within broad limits.
So on the one hand, I believe the Wyred4Sound Dac is likely not audible. But if its not audible why spend the big bucks and why put the exotic parts inside. I suppose we're being hard on the device for primarily two reasons. One of which is not really called for. It has rather higher distortion than it should though pretty close to what is claimed. A little hard to fault a company for giving honest specs. The other is the high noise floor which is apparent in the jitter signal or any signal in the tests. The signal appears to have random timing error to the point it raise noise around 15 db near the signals. Most apparent in the 32 tone test. Yet it probably is low enough not to be heard. Still you were sold on the idea of a Femto clock and clocking accuracy which this unit appears not to provide.
Probably too much is made of DACs altogether. All, but a few egregious examples uncovered so far are likely all audibly interchangeable.
Dragon, sorry for mistaking the us for US.
I work with engineers 5 days a week. Generally great people. That characterization of engineers wasn't mine but an attorney looking at jury selection and percentages\tendencies. No personal disrespect intended.
I mean if any group of professionals is the perfect target for anything, it's attorneys
Bingo, imo.
If you, listening on your system cannot discern a difference that you like, why pay?
I firmly believe that in any piece of audio gear the implementation is everything.
I've always raised my eyebrows when people say things like metal coned speakers are bright or wood pulp cones are dull, etc.
If there is any interest in measuring a Devialet Expert 120, please let me know. Shipping may be pricey...
Could all these measurements you do and ranking in tables a little pointless or meaningless if in the end they sound the same?
As in if these 2 dacs measure quite different in your tests and sound the same, then 2 dacs that sound different won't be show why in any of these measurements?
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Yes please yes please yes please !
maxxevv
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[/QUOTE]
Its probably the reverse of the reason giving. That engineers are a whole lot harder to convince in the face of inconsistent information that attorneys like to dump in front of jurors.
Dragon, sorry for mistaking the us for US.
I work with engineers 5 days a week. Generally great people. That characterization of engineers wasn't mine but an attorney looking at jury selection and percentages\tendencies. No personal disrespect intended.
I mean if any group of professionals is the perfect target for anything, it's attorneys
Its probably the reverse of the reason giving. That engineers are a whole lot harder to convince in the face of inconsistent information that attorneys like to dump in front of jurors.
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Anecdote: when I did the RME ADI-2 Pro review I linked in another thread, the unit had been subjectively evaluated first before it was sent to me. Bennett said, "It sounded really dull." So when I did my measurement suite, I found that the filter was set to "slow," which causes a significant rolloff in the top octave (-3dB at about 18 kHz). I asked Bennett if he had set the filter there and he responded that he hadn't touched it, he wasn't even aware of this option, it was set up as it came to him. Hah! The measurements bore out his listening impression.
He was a bit miffed about it- not that he hadn't looked at that option, but why in the world such an option even existed. But still, a great example of something real being heard, the measurements confirming it, and a logical reason discovered. Of course, with a better filter setting, I couldn't tell the difference between the RME and any of the other DACs I had on hand.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #139
There is a difference in my quick tests versus something "sounding the same." For it to sound the same it needs to do so across a lot of content and many people. My ears have aged significantly and I can't be representative of all people. And I am spending a bit of time on these tests, not comprehensive analysis.
The point of this test was to address: "you have not heard it so you don't know if it sounds better." I have now heard it.
There is a difference in my quick tests versus something "sounding the same." For it to sound the same it needs to do so across a lot of content and many people. My ears have aged significantly and I can't be representative of all people. And I am spending a bit of time on these tests, not comprehensive analysis.
The point of this test was to address: "you have not heard it so you don't know if it sounds better." I have now heard it.
It would be interesting to know at what measurement thresholds can we double blind test a difference between something like a DAC, but that isn't purpose of your tests. Your tests help us to highlight well engineered products at good prices. For those of us who fetishize ultra low distortion audio products they help us find new toys. Most importantly, they are keeping the industry honest.
Stereo DAC technology has been around for 40 years, and it was pretty good even when it first came out. The fact that we have products for $100.00 that are probably "audibly perfect" for almost everyone shouldn't surprise anyone. Almost all of us carry $300-$1000 computing devices in our pockets that are vastly more powerful than full room multi-million dollar super computers from 40 years ago. For some reason many audiophiles are saddled with the belief that no advances have taken place during that time.
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