Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC

[Krunok]

DoP cannot do DSD256 since this would require 768kHz support which the D10 does not have.

XU208 chip can support DSD512 in Native and DSD256 in DoP, it depends only on the driver.

Edit: and the firmware!

Take a look at the Singxer SU-1 which uses the same XU-208 chip and supports DSD512 in Native and DSD256 in DoP with new firmware.

 

[Krunok]

That's marketing talk. Native you can go up to DSD256, DoP only allows up to DSD128.

Btw, I don't have the D10 but you do, so why don't you simply try it? That's the only way to know for sure.

 

[Michael Guntsche]

XU208 chip can support DSD512 in Native and DSD256 in DoP, it depends only on the driver.

Edit: and the firmware!

Take a look at the Singxer SU-1 which uses the same XU-208 chip and supports DSD512 in Native and DSD256 in DoP with new firmware.

This very well may be but currently the D10 only supports a frequency up to 384kHz therefore no player will try to/can transmit DSD256 via DoP. If a firmware update increases the supported frequencies then of course it would work.

And yes with the driver under windows you can run native DSD256 (not DoP).

As for the singer...

Specifications:

Each output interface supports sampling rates:
PCM:
44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz,
176.4KHz, 192KHz, 352.8KHz, 384KHz
(I2S support all sampling rate,S/PDIF support upper to 192KHz

DSD:
2.8 MHz (DSD64)-DoP, native
5.6 MHz (DSD128)-DoP, native
11.2 MHz (DSD256)-native

So DoP only up to 128

 

[Michael Guntsche]

Btw, I don't have the D10 but you do, so why don't you simply try it? That's the only way to know for sure.

Well I should have written that before. On my Mac which does not support native DSD only DoP, I can go up to DSD128.
On windows with the asio driver DSD256 should be possible. I say should because I never tried it with this DAC but with another one and there it worked, so I am preety sure it will work with the D10 as well.

 

[Krunok]

New driver was released for Singxer SU-1 that supports DSD512 in Native and DSD256 in DoP:

The new Driver support DSD512 Download:

https://download.shenzhenaudio.com/Singxer/Singxer_USBAudio_v4.36.0_2017-11-14_DSD512.rar

https://www.shenzhenaudio.com/singx...nterface-with-xmos-xu208-cpld-dsd256-dop.html

Your Mac has nothing to do with Native and DoP support, it is entirely on the music player application you're using.

 

[Michael Guntsche]

I am not seeing where it says DSD256 in DoP mode on this site. As for the mac not supporting it. If you do not have specific drivers available for your OS "only" PCM output is possible. DoP piggy backs the DSD signal on PCM and for DSD256 it needs a supported frequence of 768kHz which the D10 does not provide. Therefore only DSD128 is possible with it. with windows you have a driver which does DSD in a different way so can support higher DSD rates.

 

[Krunok]

https://kitsunehifi.com/product/singxersu1black/
use cached page if it doesn't allow you to access the site, this one worked for me :
https://webcache.googleusercontent....ct/singxersu1black/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=hr

According to this guy DSD256 DoP is possible on Jriver for Mac: https://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=112430.0

 

[Krunok]

with windows you have a driver which does DSD in a different way so can support higher DSD rates.

No need to mystify things: your Mac has native USB 2.0 Audio driver which is now available in Windows 10 as well. If I'm not mistaking Armin uses Windows native driver with WASAPI and not the provided ASIO driver when making his measurements.

 

[Michael Guntsche]

No need to mystify things: your Mac has native USB 2.0 Audio driver which is now available in Windows 10 as well. If I'm not mistaking Armin uses Windows native driver with WASAPI and not the provided ASIO driver when making his measurements.

That's correct, but USB 2.0 itself does not support native DSD.
Once again with a max supported frequency of 384kHz 256DSD via DoP is not possible.

Hmm, some clarification. 256DSD is not possible with a frequency of 384kHz and two channels. If the output has 4 channels 256DSD with 384kHz would be possible.

But to come back to the initial question...
The D10 can just do 128DSD via DoP.

 

[Krunok]

That's correct, but USB 2.0 itself does not support native DSD.

True, but players like Jriver can get around that limitations. On Windows platform Foobar can also do Native DSD without ASIO driver.

The D10 can just do 128DSD via DoP.

You don't know that. XU208 chip that is used in D10 is capable of DSD512 in Native and DSD256 in DoP. As it seems Jriver on Mac is also capable of DSD256 in DoP, so why don't you simply try it instead of repeating yourself.

 

[Michael Guntsche]

You don't know that. XU208 chip that is used in D10 is capable of DSD512 in Native and DSD256 in DoP. As it seems Jriver on Mac is also capable of DSD256 in DoP, so why don't you simply try it instead of repeating yourself.

I tested it with roon, audirvana and decibel, but I can give it a short test with jriver as well when I am back home.

 

[Krunok]

I just looked at the data sheet of the ESS ES9018K2M DAC and it says it supports 32/384 PCM via I2S and DSD256.

http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en...mobile-dacs/sabre-hifi-stereo-dacs/es9018k2m/

That means that DSD256 DoP can only work if XU208 translated DSD256 DoP into Native and send it to ESS DAC via I2S. That is a thin chance, but possible..

Btw, that is exactly how Foobar is doing that - it's SACD decoder supports only DoP but with the help of DSD Transcoder it converts DoP into Native and then sends it to the DAC.

Edit: I believe Jriver can do the same thing - somewhere in the setup you simply configure it to send DSD264 as Native instead of DoP and it will do so, thus I see no problem in playing DSD264 files on Mac with D10. What I don't understand is why encode in DSD and not in PCM at first place, but that is another story.

 

[Michael Guntsche]

Yes Foobar is sending native DSD via the ASIO driver to the DAC. without the specific ASIO driver you can only do DoP.
It is a driver thing. DoP shoehorns the DSD data into PCM packets and therefore you either need a high frequency or more channels or both depending on the DSD you want to send over. If you have an ASIO driver you use the DSD extension to send the data, for this you need far less resources. Linux also has native DSD support so it works there as well.
MACs only support PCM without a specific driver and therefore are restricted to DoP as well.

And yes jriver under WINDOWS with the driver can send native DSD, which it cannot do with the MAC.

 

[Krunok]

Yes Foobar is sending native DSD via the ASIO driver to the DAC. without the specific ASIO driver you can only do DoP.
It is a driver thing. DoP shoehorns the DSD data into PCM packets and therefore you either need a high frequency or more channels or both depending on the DSD you want to send over. If you have an ASIO driver you use the DSD extension to send the data, for this you need far less resources. Linux also has native DSD support so it works there as well.
MACs only support PCM without a specific driver and therefore are restricted to DoP as well.

And yes jriver under WINDOWS with the driver can send native DSD, which it cannot do with the MAC.

Are you saying there is no ASIO equivalent driver standard for MAC? Wow.. The fact that something works better with Windows than with Mac must heart you guys a lot, ha? ))

 

[Michael Guntsche]

There are Vendors who provide custom drivers for their products and there are even asio compatible ones. But for the consumer market you normally do not have that and do not need it either.
That said, a lot of the DACs I saw have an xmos chip and more or less use the same USB driver for it for windows (http://www.thesycon.de).
And they are the same guys who created the new windows driver for USB 2.0 audio for Microsoft.

 

[Krunok]

There are Vendors who provide custom drivers for their products and there are even asio compatible ones. But for the consumer market you normally do not have that and do not need it either.
That said, a lot of the DACs I saw have an xmos chip and more or less use the same USB driver for it for windows (http://www.desycon.de).
And they are the same guys who created the new windows driver for USB 2.0 audio for Microsoft.

I believe you meant Thesycon, not Desycon. Can't you Mac guys just politely ask Thesycon to make you ASIO capable driver for Mac? Because this way you will always remain without true support for Native DSD, one would almost use the term "audio crippled" (pun intended!).

 

[Krunok]

Of course, I'm only kidding here.

As I said, I cannot think of a single technical reason why would anyone prefer DSD format instead of PCM. But I'm sure that in the near future we can expect to have DSD2048 capable DACs without anyone knowing how that may benefit the sound quality and does it makes sense at all. As typical HiFi consumer, which claims to hear the difference when swapping power cable, is anyhow in vast majority I wouldn't be surprised to see recording companies start to produce DSD2048 recording as it is easier to do that than to educate those guys that it doesn't improve the sound quality but instead only makes happy storage manufacturers as much more storage will be needed to store such recordings.

 

[Michael Guntsche]

I believe you meant Thesycon, not Desycon. Can't you Mac guys just politely ask Thesycon to make you ASIO capable driver for Mac? Because this way you will always remain without true support for Native DSD, one would almost use the term "audio crippled" (pun intended!).

Yeah, thesycon, stupid typo.

I listened to DSD the first time around 18 years ago and back then it was something new compared to CDs, since it could do multi channel and just really sounded nice that way but with today's lossless hi-res formats I do not hear a difference... well maybe I am too old.
I will also rip my CD collection a third time (this time to flac) and this will be most likely the last time I do that.
And I will also dust of my vinyls, listen to them one more time, not because the "sound" better but because I like the haptic (interaction whatever you may call it).... aaand if I really really really want to I will digitalize them as well, which means new digital toys area required for that too. As an added bonus this will also satisfy my GAS.

*GAS: Gear acquisition syndrom

 

[Krunok]

Yeah, thesycon, stupid typo.

I listened to DSD the first time around 18 years ago and back then it was something new compared to CDs, since it could do multi channel and just really sounded nice that way but with today's lossless hi-res formats I do not hear a difference... well maybe I am too old.
I will also rip my CD collection a third time (this time to flac) and this will be most likely the last time I do that.
And I will also dust of my vinyls, listen to them one more time, not because the "sound" better but because I like the haptic (interaction whatever you may call it).... aaand if I really really really want to I will digitalize them as well, which means new digital toys area required for that too. As an added bonus this will also satisfy my GAS.

*GAS: Gear acquisition syndrom

Hahahaha
It seems wee have a lot in common: I still have my Denon DVD 3910 player which I bought in 2003 to listen to those few SACD and DVD-A discs that were produced back then. I also bought Rotel multichannel processor and multichannel amp to fully accommodate multichannel sound.

Luckily Denon is also a very decent CD player but it mostly collects dust as I digitized my CD collection which now resides safely on Synology NAS. I got rid of all my vinyls years ago when I got married. As our flat was too small for vinyls and kinderbett it was an easy choice. I do however have my moments of nostalgia exactly for that "interaction" you're mentioning as playing flac files from NAS is nearly not the same fun as playing records.

Maybe we can have a beer or two next time I visit Austria (or is it Germany?) so we can discuss this topic in better surroundings than like this on forum?

P.S. I'm from Zagreb, Croatia

 

[Michael Guntsche]

Yep it's Austria, near the Slovenian border, so a 3 hour drive. Feel free to drop me a note when you are around.