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Review and Measurements of Topping D10 DAC
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Guermantes
Senior Member
Nice to hear. What version of foobar components are you using to play DSD Native?
Guermantes
Senior Member
Additional info from Topping about Op amp swap:
"If you want a bigger change in performance, then maybe three OPA2134 will need to change together. The reason why 2 OPA2134 are fixed is because the dc offset of the 2 OP-AMP there could not be high. After you understand this point, no matter what is the input structure of the OP-AMP, you can replace it. OPA1612 is a good choice, but we do not have measured data for them because since OPA2134 already reached the spec target of D10, we use OPA2134."
"If you want a bigger change in performance, then maybe three OPA2134 will need to change together. The reason why 2 OPA2134 are fixed is because the dc offset of the 2 OP-AMP there could not be high. After you understand this point, no matter what is the input structure of the OP-AMP, you can replace it. OPA1612 is a good choice, but we do not have measured data for them because since OPA2134 already reached the spec target of D10, we use OPA2134."
PyramidElectric
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Just a heads up for anyone thinking of ordering one of these from AliExpress: Avoid seller HIFI College Store aka SHILANG XIE. A couple of weeks after ordering this, this seller claimed that Aliexpress shipping had returned the package to him, siting logistics reasons. Obviously this stuff happens, so I just said 'fine, refund me' and the seller seemed fine with this, but said I would have to apply for refund via Aliexpress. Here's where it got weird; the seller then extended the shipping time to July'18 (I ordered with express shipping 7-15days), and Aliexpress won't even look into the protection refund until this expires, and the seller has stopped responding to messages. I ordered another one via Audiophonics in France; great service.
Regarding our discussion of exchanging op amp in D10 I found a great article which covers this topic in detail and in, what I consider to be, a professional way: Here are some of the parts of the article that I found particularly interesting:
MYTH: MOST OP AMPS SOUND DIFFERENT - There’s a general perception that op amps sound different. Many gear manufactures tout op amp brands and part numbers in their marketing literature. The $3 OPA2134 is supposed to sound much better than the $1 NE5532 and the $10 AD8610 is supposed to sound better still. But do they? The chip companies don’t help the perception implying some of their op amps offer better sound. But used properly, in a typical audio application, I’ll challenge anyone to a listening test and bet they won’t be able to tell the above three op amps apart. The only catch is it would be a blind test and the listener won’t know which op amp is which.
MYTH: MOST OP AMPS ARE COMPATIBLE - Op amps are complex devices. While many have the same pin configuration making it appear you can simply substitute one for another, that’s often not the case. They’re optimized for different input bias values, configurations, gains, feedback circuits, load impedances, quiescent currents, speeds/bandwidths, compensation values, operating voltages, noise trade-offs, etc. But some audiophiles can’t be bothered by, or don’t understand, all those details. So they simply swap them out without changing anything else in the circuit. Many have a favorite op amp or two they like to use in most everything without considering if it’s a good match. It’s like the old quote “when you have only a hammer everything looks like a nail”. But that just doesn’t work for op amps. And, not surprisingly, some op amps do better than others when you ignore their requirements. Again, this is a lot like the Second Grain Of Truth above. If you use a given op amp incorrectly, it may well sound different. But it’s not the op amp’s fault. The person misusing it is creating the audible differences.
MYTH: OP AMP UPGRADES ARE USUALLY WORTHWHILE -The forums are full of posts from people who buy some perfectly nice piece of audio gear, open it up, discover the manufacture used a “cheap 5532” op amp, and they promptly pop in something much more expensive and exotic to “improve the sound”. These are usually people who lack the test equipment to have any idea if their op amp swaps help, hurt, or are just a waste of money. They simply use their ears, in highly biased sighted listening, and draw all sorts of erroneous conclusions. I know of op amp swaps causing potentially harmful oscillation. Someone might hear ultrasonic artifacts from the oscillation as “newfound detail” when, in reality, they have unwittingly created a radio transmitter. And this isn’t as rare as you might think because of the “faster is better” mentality. (photo: photozou.jp)
TRANSPARENCY: If op amps really have a “sound”, as many audiophiles suggest, it would follow when you add op amps to the signal path the sound should change. Two guys named Meyer and Moran conducted a very interesting rigorous study. They played high resolution SACDs on a high end system and sometimes inserted an extra A/D and and D/A into the signal path to “down convert” the high resolution audio to CD quality (16/44) audio. After 500+ trials lasting more than a year, using audiophiles, recording engineers, and students as listeners, they found nobody could tell when the extra A/D and D/A was in the signal path. On top of demonstrating the supposed benefits of SACD are highly questionable they also managed to demonstrate that A/D and D/A converters can be audibly transparent as well. And, as you may have guessed, both the A/D and D/A add several op amps to the signal path. But nobody could tell they were even there. There have been many more blind tests that also demonstrate different op amps (and much more) indeed sound so much alike even audiophiles can’t hear the difference. See the Matrix audio test for another example.
Complete article can be found here: http://nwavguy.blogspot.hr/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html
While I do believe pretty much everything stated here, it would still be interesting to see what will happen with the performance when that op amp is swapped with a "better" op amp.
Since Topping stated that those 2 op amps that cannot be replaced are doing I-V conversion I am assuming that 3rd op amp that can be replaced is acting as an output buffer. I asked Topping to confirm it and will post there reply here when I get it. I am of course very sure that if difference can be heard it could only be for much worse as slightly better THD and/or SNR we wouldn't be able to hear.
MYTH: MOST OP AMPS SOUND DIFFERENT - There’s a general perception that op amps sound different. Many gear manufactures tout op amp brands and part numbers in their marketing literature. The $3 OPA2134 is supposed to sound much better than the $1 NE5532 and the $10 AD8610 is supposed to sound better still. But do they? The chip companies don’t help the perception implying some of their op amps offer better sound. But used properly, in a typical audio application, I’ll challenge anyone to a listening test and bet they won’t be able to tell the above three op amps apart. The only catch is it would be a blind test and the listener won’t know which op amp is which.
MYTH: MOST OP AMPS ARE COMPATIBLE - Op amps are complex devices. While many have the same pin configuration making it appear you can simply substitute one for another, that’s often not the case. They’re optimized for different input bias values, configurations, gains, feedback circuits, load impedances, quiescent currents, speeds/bandwidths, compensation values, operating voltages, noise trade-offs, etc. But some audiophiles can’t be bothered by, or don’t understand, all those details. So they simply swap them out without changing anything else in the circuit. Many have a favorite op amp or two they like to use in most everything without considering if it’s a good match. It’s like the old quote “when you have only a hammer everything looks like a nail”. But that just doesn’t work for op amps. And, not surprisingly, some op amps do better than others when you ignore their requirements. Again, this is a lot like the Second Grain Of Truth above. If you use a given op amp incorrectly, it may well sound different. But it’s not the op amp’s fault. The person misusing it is creating the audible differences.
MYTH: OP AMP UPGRADES ARE USUALLY WORTHWHILE -The forums are full of posts from people who buy some perfectly nice piece of audio gear, open it up, discover the manufacture used a “cheap 5532” op amp, and they promptly pop in something much more expensive and exotic to “improve the sound”. These are usually people who lack the test equipment to have any idea if their op amp swaps help, hurt, or are just a waste of money. They simply use their ears, in highly biased sighted listening, and draw all sorts of erroneous conclusions. I know of op amp swaps causing potentially harmful oscillation. Someone might hear ultrasonic artifacts from the oscillation as “newfound detail” when, in reality, they have unwittingly created a radio transmitter. And this isn’t as rare as you might think because of the “faster is better” mentality. (photo: photozou.jp)
TRANSPARENCY: If op amps really have a “sound”, as many audiophiles suggest, it would follow when you add op amps to the signal path the sound should change. Two guys named Meyer and Moran conducted a very interesting rigorous study. They played high resolution SACDs on a high end system and sometimes inserted an extra A/D and and D/A into the signal path to “down convert” the high resolution audio to CD quality (16/44) audio. After 500+ trials lasting more than a year, using audiophiles, recording engineers, and students as listeners, they found nobody could tell when the extra A/D and D/A was in the signal path. On top of demonstrating the supposed benefits of SACD are highly questionable they also managed to demonstrate that A/D and D/A converters can be audibly transparent as well. And, as you may have guessed, both the A/D and D/A add several op amps to the signal path. But nobody could tell they were even there. There have been many more blind tests that also demonstrate different op amps (and much more) indeed sound so much alike even audiophiles can’t hear the difference. See the Matrix audio test for another example.
Complete article can be found here: http://nwavguy.blogspot.hr/2011/08/op-amps-myths-facts.html
While I do believe pretty much everything stated here, it would still be interesting to see what will happen with the performance when that op amp is swapped with a "better" op amp.
Since Topping stated that those 2 op amps that cannot be replaced are doing I-V conversion I am assuming that 3rd op amp that can be replaced is acting as an output buffer. I asked Topping to confirm it and will post there reply here when I get it. I am of course very sure that if difference can be heard it could only be for much worse as slightly better THD and/or SNR we wouldn't be able to hear.
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I saw an for sale post on Head-Fi for a CKKiii headamp that touted the op amp was "socketed for your rolling pleasure". That OPA2134 controls the DC servo circuitry to eliminate offset and per the designer, was removed from the audio chain as part of the redesign of the amp from the original version. Rolling it with just any other opamp might well create DC offset on the output and fry the unwitting user's cans.
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Interesting, as that's the vendor who is shown to have taken the most orders and, when I checked during the sale, indicated the quickest delivery time, if I recall correctly!
I asked Topping about 2 other amps that can't be replaced and if OPA1612 is a good option to replace the 3rd op amp and here is what they replied:
"If you want a bigger change in performance, then maybe three OPA2134 will need to change together. The reason why 2 OPA2134 are fixed is because the dc offset of the 2 OP-AMP there could not be high. After you understand this point, no matter what is the input structure of the OP-AMP, you can replace it. OPA1612 is a good choice, but we do not have measured data for them because since OPA2134 already reached the spec target of D10, we use OPA2134."
If those 2 op amps that cannot be replaced are I-V amplifiers than 3d op amp in DIP socket is most probably a low pass filter. That would explain why they said it is safe to replace it OPA162 or any similar op amp, either FET or bipolar. That would also explain why they said all 3 op amps would have to be replaced to have "bigger change in performance".
DataX
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This is actually the vendor that I purchased my D10 from. Had no trouble with my order and received it in 5 days via DHL (HK->US), so I guess YMMV?
PyramidElectric
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Yep I saw other people had recommended, that's why I went with that seller. I have no idea who is at fault with this order 'going wrong' but what I do know is that that the seller and AliExpress just constantly pass the buck re who is liable to refund, rather than making any attempt to fix the situation.
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Thanks, I had seen that...my comment was to support your other post re the myths of rolling opamps. The presence of a socketed opamp doesn't necessarily mean the designer is giving the user carte blanche to "upgrading" it.
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Sounds like you had a good experience. I have generally been surprised when I have purchased small items from China /HK on eBay when the delivery has always been a lot quicker than was estimated. But PayPaling a Chinese vendor $2 for a replacement HD600 headband pad, for instance, is a pretty easy decision vs. $100-250 for a DAC, right?
I believe that presence of a socketed opamp is only a cute marketing trick. Swapping the opamp certainly won't change the sound as you hear it but it may make you feel like you redesigned and enhanced the bloody thing.
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I believe that presence of a socketed opamp is only a cute marketing trick. Swapping the opamp certainly won't change the sound as you hear it but it may make you feel like you redesigned and enhanced the bloody thing.
In the case of my amp, where the function of it cannot improve the sound but has only the potential for harm...one wonders why it was socketed in the first place.
I can think of two reasons: if it is highlighted as socketed on the product web page than it's about marketing. But I would be worried if it is not, as in that case it may be prone to failures so it was socketed so it can be easily replaced. I'm kidding of course..
OP
- Thread Starter
- #258
There is actually a formal published study of audible differences between audio opamps. I will try to find it and post a digest of it.
You mean like a properly done blind test with different types of new generation opamps? Please do, I'm really interested to read it.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #260
Yes, it is a double blind study. I don't know how "modern" the opamps are. I just found the study and it is from 2011 so not ancient history.
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