Review and Measurements of Nobsound NS-DAC3 Pro DAC & Amp

[Krunok]

I'm an admitted pain in the ass.

AS I said, I don't mind being correceted but you did ruin @pwjazz dreams about tube sound.

 

[pwjazz]

I stand righfully corrected

Correction - rightfully

Sorry, I couldn't help myself

Honestly though, I'm just looking to have a little fun with this after purchasing what amounts to a $130 paperweight with high non-euphonic distortion.

 

[Krunok]

Correction - rightfully

Sorry, I couldn't help myself

@Thomas savage , can you be so kind to tell this guy to put pants on his head?

 

[amirm]

Isn't it third harmonic dominant?

Yes. Strange as it may sound, I jump out of bed thinking, did I note the right harmonic there???

Fixed.

 

[amirm]

Honest question: Are the distortions you've measured audible? If so, then obviously throw it in the trash. If not, then why disregard "features a mile long" in favor of something you can't use or appreciate?

It would be very nice if our instrumentation spat out that information but it does not. We use ancient measurement metrics that by themselves cannot reveal that data.

However, there comes a point in such metrics where we achieve what I call "provably inaudible" metric. That is, the distortion and noise are below threshold of audibility relative to highest level we would ever want to play. That SINAD number is anywhere between 115 and 120. Anything else gets into a gray area of what content, whose ears, what level being played, ambient noise, headphone, etc.

Seeing how we can find such devices in budget pricing, that is the criteria I use. And I get more and more disgusted the lower the number. In this case, we are talking about shortfall of some 30 dB so not an insignificant number.

This is no different than resenting someone saying you must wash your hands after you go to the bathroom. Can they prove that you will get sick if you don't? No, but it is the guideline for good health. Same here.

As to competing devices, they all have the same mile long list of formats these days. So that is not a differentiation. The differentiation is that those devices don't distort the signal as much and are better engineered. You can for example get the ifi iOne Nano. Yes it is $50 more but that is on Amazon and not a distribution channel where you may have to wait weeks to get the unit, or have any recourse if there are issues. If this device was sold the same way through Amazon, it would not be much cheaper than ifi iOne Nano.

Many people have picked up the Topping DX3 Pro for $180 recently through the same channel. Yes, it is $40 more but you are getting a front-panel display and much, much better design and support behind the product. Compared to cost of music, $40 extra for better hardware is worth it in my book. If it is not in yours, well, you can ignore my data and buy what you like. It is not like I am the government and have put a stop on import of the product.

 

[Krunok]

It would be very nice if our instrumentation spat out that information but it does not. We use ancient measurement metrics that by themselves cannot reveal that data.

However, there comes a point in such metrics where we achieve what I call "provably inaudible" metric. That is, the distortion and noise are below threshold of audibility relative to highest level we would ever want to play. That SINAD number is anywhere between 115 and 120. Anything else gets into a gray area of what content, whose ears, what level being played, ambient noise, headphone, etc.

Seeing how we can find such devices in budget pricing, that is the criteria I use. And I get more and more disgusted the lower the number. In this case, we are talking about shortfall of some 30 dB so not an insignificant number.

This is no different than resenting someone saying you must wash your hands after you go to the bathroom. Can they prove that you will get sick if you don't? No, but it is the guideline for good health. Same here.

As to competing devices, they all have the same mile long list of formats these days. So that is not a differentiation. The differentiation is that those devices don't distort the signal as much and are better engineered. You can for example get the ifi iOne Nano. Yes it is $50 more but that is on Amazon and not a distribution channel where you may have to wait weeks to get the unit, or have any recourse if there are issues. If this device was sold the same way through Amazon, it would not be much cheaper than ifi iOne Nano.

Many people have picked up the Topping DX3 Pro for $180 recently through the same channel. Yes, it is $40 more but you are getting a front-panel display and much, much better design and support behind the product. Compared to cost of music, $40 extra for better hardware is worth it in my book. If it is not in yours, well, you can ignore my data and buy what you like. It is not like I am the government and have put a stop on import of the product.

Have you found any distortion/noises when listening to this device? You usually add your listening notes after the measurements but here they're missing.

 

[amirm]

Have you found any distortion/noises when listening to this device? You usually add your listening notes after the measurements but here they're missing.

No. When I truncate my testing it means just that. I am sending the unit back to its owner in a couple of hours. There is so much better engineered devices waiting urgently for testing that I need to meter my time.

 

[Krunok]

No. When I truncate my testing it means just that. I am sending the unit back to its owner in a couple of hours. There is so much better engineered devices waiting urgently for testing that I need to meter my time.

Pity. I kind of appreciate that part of your review as well. I believe that only on not so well engineered devices like this one we can try to establish relations between what we measure vs what we hear.

 

[valar_k]

A poorly - or so so, engineered stuff cannot match a well engineered one in terms of pure performances.
You know that, and that's one of the reasons for which you have bought your ADI-2.
That's is true for each and every single stuff you interact with in your daily life.

I guess my point is that for people who don't wanna throw down serious cash like I did, why should "pure performance" trump feature set, when the performance failings are inaudible.

Don't get me wrong, I love this site and seeing these measurements, but it's mostly because so many companies do sell pure performance rather than feature sets, so it's nice when Amir checks their claims.

But to cut the measurements short and totally discount this thing for a -80dB 2nd harmonic when it has a huge feature set seems myopic to me.

 

[sergeauckland]

AFAIK, second harmonic is 2x fundamental, 3rd is 3x fundamental, etc.

Maybe it's another transatlantic difference. For me, the first harmonic is 2x fundamental, second harmonic is 3x fundamental. 1x fundamental is just that, fundamental, not harmonic.

But then, I get confused with American buildings having the first floor on the ground and restaurants having a starter and an entre, whereas we have an entre (as in the entry to the meal) then a main course.

Tomato and tomato.

S

 

[Krunok]

I guess my point is that for people who don't wanna throw down serious cash like I did, why should "pure performance" trump feature set, when the performance failings are inaudible.

Don't get me wrong, I love this site and seeing these measurements, but it's mostly because so many companies do sell pure performance rather than feature sets, so it's nice when Amir checks their claims.

But to cut the measurements short and totally discount this thing for a -80dB 2nd harmonic when it has a huge feature set seems myopic to me.

I do appreciate the work @amirm is doing here, but measuring this device and returning it without listening to it for even 5 minutes is kind of "l'art pour l'artistic" approach that defeats the purpose of testing the audio devices. I think the device is unacceptable when it doesn't sound neutral, not when its measurement didn't meet some undefined criteria. If we accept the latter we can immediately say that, for example, ALL tube amps are to be discarded as NONE of them will ever meet some measurement criteria to become acceptable.

 

[graz_lag]

I guess my point is that for people who don't wanna throw down serious cash like I did, why should "pure performance" trump feature set, when the performance failings are inaudible.
But to cut the measurements short and totally discount this thing for a -80dB 2nd harmonic when it has a huge feature set seems myopic to me.

In my company, we buy and sell, and so we travel a lot, in mainland China.
The internal market is huge, much huger than one can only imagine.
They say there are 400 millions middle-class individuals (related to the local class differentiations) and each one of these wants to get for sure the latest hi-tech gears, so including DAC and stuffs like that.
These manufacturers - or in many cases traders, who grow up like mushrooms, they do not give a Schiit abt. the measurements of this and that ...
There is no time to invest on all that : the goal is to keep up with the market trends, with high-tech stuffs, which can at least be "identical" in their appearance to what the market demands, or to what the recognized "market leaders"sell.

And of course, price is always the deciding purchasing factor in mainland China.
When I go there presenting my proposals, I do not bother anymore with pages of technical descriptions abt. what I am proposing, but with just one page (one paragraph ...) with the total cost for the supply. That's and more than enough to secure or not the deal.

Few companies looking to grow internationally, out-stand that concept. For the others, better is to leave them for their internal market.

 

[graz_lag]

... "l'art pour l'artistic" approach ...

Art for art's sake ... so "L'art Pour L'art" ...

 

[Krunok]

Art for art's sake ... so "L'art Pour L'art" ...

I was actually about to write "l'art pour l'art-istic" to make english sounding adjective out of that expression but I mistyped it without a "-".

Btw, as far as I know you don't capitalise every word, right?

 

[graz_lag]

Btw, as far as I know you don't capitalise every word, right?

Practically, never ... expect if it is a slogan, as in this case, or used by i.e. a group of musicians, or artists, etcetera ...

 

[amirm]

I do appreciate the work @amirm is doing here, but measuring this device and returning it without listening to it for even 5 minutes is kind of "l'art pour l'artistic" approach that defeats the purpose of testing the audio devices.

Nothing is 5 minutes. It takes as long to set up the test fixture, measure levels, then plug in the fixture for AB testing, followed by going through a bunch of tracks to try to hear differences. And then doing the same with another headphone. Finally, I have to put things in words in a defensible manner.

On top of this, I am getting concerned about my hearing. Performing a listening test every month or so is one thing. Doing it only daily basis, pushing amps to distortion levels, etc. is not something I am comfortable doing much of it.

For these reasons, if a device does not have strong following or stellar performance, I have to shortcut the testing. All of this is a hobby for me and at the point that it becomes a chore, I need to stop.

Testing USB DACs in contrast is a lot faster and easier than anything with headphone output.

From volume of testing point of view, I have more stuff to test right now than anytime in the past. The pressure is overwhelming.

On this unit I searched and there is just no discussion about it online. So I made a judgement that even if I did a ton of work, it would not have much of an audience.

 

[Krunok]

Nothing is 5 minutes. It takes as long to set up the test fixture, measure levels, then plug in the fixture for AB testing, followed by going through a bunch of tracks to try to hear differences. And then doing the same with another headphone. Finally, I have to put things in words in a defensible manner.

On top of this, I am getting concerned about my hearing. Performing a listening test every month or so is one thing. Doing it only daily basis, pushing amps to distortion levels, etc. is not something I am comfortable doing much of it.

Yes, nothing is 5 minutes, and by judging your reviews everyone can tell you're putting a decent ammount of work into them. I am well aware that frequent listening at high levels can impact hearing.

But, on the other hand, I'm sure you'll agree that it is very obvious that NS-DAC3 is not state of the art audiophile device but rather a budget box packed with features, so it would be sufficient that you just listened few songs at moderate levels so you can give your impression about SQ. As I said, IMHO, it is with low grade devices where we can learn most about relations between measurement figures and SQ as well enginereed devices alwalys sound simply neutral. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[graz_lag]

If we accept the latter we can immediately say that, for example, ALL tube amps are to be discarded as NONE of them will ever meet some measurement criteria to become acceptable.

TUBE amps are in a totally different league, not saying better or worst, but different.
You compare apple-to-apple, so one diesel engine vs. another diesel engine, not diesel vs. gasoline ...
Any amp technology brings music from point A to point B, as any car engine technology brings you from point A to point B.
Each technology offers pros and cons.
Usually, you compare what's comparable ... you do not compare a road bike with a MTB ... Although both bring you from point A to point B.

 

[Jimster480]

I guess my point is that for people who don't wanna throw down serious cash like I did, why should "pure performance" trump feature set, when the performance failings are inaudible.

Don't get me wrong, I love this site and seeing these measurements, but it's mostly because so many companies do sell pure performance rather than feature sets, so it's nice when Amir checks their claims.

But to cut the measurements short and totally discount this thing for a -80dB 2nd harmonic when it has a huge feature set seems myopic to me.

Except that this device doesn't really offer any "feature set" that is special in any way for its price.
Its just "another device" with a huge list of features.
If the first performance test is poor, then the rest will just be worse.

I do agree that sometimes amir gets disgusted too fast, but with a SINAD under 90.... linearity will also suffer and won't reach 16 bits. Meaning that just with the Modi Multibit, its likely that it will indeed fail to fully resolve music.
You are welcome to do listening tests yourself, but from my personal experiences with the devices I both own and have had time listening to vs the performance measurements later posted on this site.... the SINAD and linearity are definitely directly correlated with audio reproductive capabilities.

 

[graz_lag]

... the SINAD and linearity are definitely directly correlated with audio reproductive capabilities.

They're indeed the ABC of the audio reproductive capabilities.