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Review and Measurements of Nobsound NS-DAC3 Pro DAC & Amp

Krunok

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What ? My only doubt will be now whether to ship it back with FedEx or UPS ... :cool:

OK, going back to serious business, for my overhead passive amplifier, pls. do not be so jealous, I promise you that will let you test it next time I come in town with it ... :D

LOL :D
 

pwjazz

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@Krunok and @Headphonaholic were talking about transparency earlier. When working with less than fully capable equipment, it's fun to think about ways to squeeze more out of it... within reason.

1542763686607.png


Looking at Amir's graph of THD+N vs power output, we see what seems to be a typical profile for solid state amps, with distortion falling with increased output until we hit the point of clipping. Sure there's a little rise before clipping, but distortion still stays relatively lower than at low output.

In the case of the Nobsound into a 300 ohm load, we see distortion of 0.0043% at about 116 mW. Driving an HD650, that works out to 119 dB SPL with distortion happening at -87 dB, or 32 dB, which one would suspect could well be audible.

However, people don't typically listen at such high levels (even accounting for 20 dB peaks). I personally listen at levels of around 70 dB, so we could assume peaks around 90 dB. On the HD650, that would require only .14 mW, which puts us in the vicinity of 0.05% distortion, -66 dB, so about 24 dB. Again, this might very well be audible.

What only occurred to me today is that, using negative digital pre-gain, we can effectively move into the amplifier's sweet spot. In this particular case, we'd apply -29 dB of pre-gain to push the 90 dB peaks to require the same output as 119 dB peaks without pre-gain. At that point, we've got THD+N of -87 dB against an output of 90 dB, so the noise is only 3 dB above silent. Even better, at the average level of 70 dB, we're drawing 1.12 mW of power, putting distortion at 0.006% or -84 dB, or 14 dB below silent. That seems pretty darned transparent!

Am I missing or miscalculating something here? If I'm right, it seems like a good general strategy with solid state gear to apply negative pre-gain to push the amplifier into its optimal performance range given the listener's preferred volume. If I were to build a DAC/amp, it would be interesting to include some knowledge of its distortion profile and then automatically apply negative pre-gain in the digital domain in order to operate in that optimal range from a distortion perspective.

EDIT -

I need to get better sleep! What I'm missing is this - the distortion is a function of the output power. For a given load (headphone), the output power for a given SPL is always going to be the same. If I digitally attenuate the input signal, I end up having to turn up the volume dial, which just reduces the analog attenuation of the input signal prior to amplification. So the amplifier is doing the same amount of work and will produce the same amount of distortion.

To move the amplifier into the sweet spot of distortion without increasing SPL, I would need to increase the load, either by using less efficient headphones or adding some sort of analog attenuation after the amp (which I assume creates new issues).
 
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pwjazz

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Am I missing or miscalculating something here?

I need to get better sleep! What I'm missing is this - the distortion is a function of the output power. For a given load (headphone), the output power for a given SPL is always going to be the same. If I digitally attenuate the input signal, I end up having to turn up the volume dial, which just reduces the analog attenuation of the input signal prior to amplification. So the amplifier is doing the same amount of work and will produce the same amount of distortion.

To move the amplifier into the sweet spot of distortion without increasing SPL, I would need to increase the load, either by using less efficient headphones or adding some sort of analog attenuation after the amp (which I assume creates new issues).

An audiophile-ism which I've read in a few places is that the 300 Ohm HD650 "out-resolves" the 150 Ohm HD58X because it has "more windings on the voice coil" and thus more control. I never understood what on earth this could be talking about, but now I'm wondering if the more difficult load just tends to move the HD650 closer to solid state amplifiers' distortion valley relative to the easier HD58X ... In other words, maybe folks are in fact hearing something real in this case and just misinterpreting the cause.
 

pwjazz

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View attachment 17839
In all honesty if you like it and enjoy the sound and features does it matter if it measures badly?

I like that you put it in perspective. Seeking some further perspective, I pulled up some measurements of relatively well regarded amplifiers that have earned @amirm 's recommendation, just for comparison:

1542779193218.png


1542779221395.png


The JDS Labs Element and rHead both produce more power than the Nobsound, and their distortion continues to fall until right before they hit max power. The thing is, in real life I operate well below max power. Let's assume that I'm listening with my HD58X at an average SPL of 75 dB with peaks at 95 dB. That comes out to 0.01 and 0.75 mW respectively. How does distortion on these amps compare at those levels? We don't have graphs for 150 ohm loads like the HD58X, but I'll just cheat and assume they're similar to the 300 ohm load of the HD650.
  • Element - .1% / .04%
  • rHead - .07% / .025%
  • Nobsound - .06% / .025%
Now I realize this isn't an apples to apples comparison because the Nobsound is an all-in-one whereas the rHead is an amp and the Element's measurements are just for its headphone amplifier section. Still, just going from these numbers, THD+N for the Nobsound at reasonable listening levels seems comparable to the much more expensive rHead and actually better than the also more expensive Element.

Yes, the relatively state of the art Topping DX3 Pro wipes the floor with it, but overall the Nobsound's headphone section's performance seems respectable.
 

Krunok

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In the case of the Nobsound into a 300 ohm load, we see distortion of 0.0043% at about 116 mW. Driving an HD650, that works out to 119 dB SPL with distortion happening at -87 dB, or 32 dB, which one would suspect could well be audible.

However, people don't typically listen at such high levels (even accounting for 20 dB peaks). I personally listen at levels of around 70 dB, so we could assume peaks around 90 dB. On the HD650, that would require only .14 mW, which puts us in the vicinity of 0.05% distortion, -66 dB, so about 24 dB. Again, this might very well be audible.

What only occurred to me today is that, using negative digital pre-gain, we can effectively move into the amplifier's sweet spot. In this particular case, we'd apply -29 dB of pre-gain to push the 90 dB peaks to require the same output as 119 dB peaks without pre-gain. At that point, we've got THD+N of -87 dB against an output of 90 dB, so the noise is only 3 dB above silent. Even better, at the average level of 70 dB, we're drawing 1.12 mW of power, putting distortion at 0.006% or -84 dB, or 14 dB below silent. That seems pretty darned transparent!

Am I missing or miscalculating something here? If I'm right, it seems like a good general strategy with solid state gear to apply negative pre-gain to push the amplifier into its optimal performance range given the listener's preferred volume. If I were to build a DAC/amp, it would be interesting to include some knowledge of its distortion profile and then automatically apply negative pre-gain in the digital domain in order to operate in that optimal range from a distortion perspective.

I don't thik that distortion would be audible. You would be challenged to hear noise at these levels and not distortion which is much harder to hear than noise.

You can't cancell distortion before it happens. You can only do it when it's happening via feedback.
 

Johnny2Bad

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We cannot have perfect playback. We can only have lower levels of imperfect playback.

Aberrations are cumulative. So even if one device in a chain has distortions at the threshold of inaudibility, it adds to the other distortions produced by other devices in the chain.

Even if every device in a playback chain produced distortions at the threshold of inaudibility, the cumulative distortion would therefore be audible.

If most of the devices in a playback chain produced distortions well below audibility, then the one device that had higher distortion above the threshold of inaudibility would stand in stark contrast, and we would know which device is the culprit as well. This is how an ideal reviewer's ideal reference system should work.

So what we want in each individual component in a playback chain is a nice cushion below audibility which might result in cumulative distortions at or below the threshold of audibility and that should get us what we want as far as total system performance in the end.
 
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Krunok

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We cannot have perfect playback. We can only have lower levels of imperfect playback.

Aberrations are cumulative. So even if one device in a chain has distortions at the threshold of inaudibility, it adds to the other distortions produced by other devices in the chain.

Even if every device in a playback chain produced distortions at the threshold of inaudibility, the cumulative distortion would therefore be audible.

If most of the devices in a playback chain produced distortions well below audibility, then the one device that had higher distortion above the threshold of inaudibility would stand in stark contrast, and we would know which device is the culprit as well. This is how an ideal reviewer's ideal reference system should work.

So what we want in each individual component in a playback chain is a nice cushion below audibility which might result in cumulative distortions at or below the threshold of audibility and that should get us what we want as far as total system performance in the end.

Your logic is sound, but let me remind you that loudspeakers generate distortion in the range of x-0.x%, amps 0.0x%-0.00x% and DACs/preamps in the range of 0.00X%-0.000x%. So when they all add up it doesn't really happen at the same position around the decimal point.
 

pwjazz

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Your logic is sound, but let me remind you that loudspeakers generate distortion in the range of x-0.x%, amps 0.0x%-0.00x% and DACs/preamps in the range of 0.00X%-0.000x%. So when they all add up it doesn't really happen at the same position around the decimal point.

That's a good point, though high quality headphones belie this. My LCD2C for example measures between 0.1-0.2% THD at 90dB SPL in the all important mid-range, so theoretically a bad source's distortion could exceed the transducer's in this case.
 

Krunok

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That's a good point, though high quality headphones belie this. My LCD2C for example measures between 0.1-0.2% THD at 90dB SPL in the all important mid-range, so theoretically a bad source's distortion could exceed the transducer's in this case.

In real life that "bad source's" distortion can come only from a tube amp, and trust me, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as you may think judging by the figure. In fact, some folks like that kind of distortion very much.. :)
 

Soniclife

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Foobar2K has the ABX Comparator add-on ...
AFAIC, never used it ...
I encourage you to play with it, it's one of the easiest ways to do a level matched DBT between 2 things that are actualy different, I found it an enlightening reality check.
 

pwjazz

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In real life that "bad source's" distortion can come only from a tube amp, and trust me, it doesn't sound nearly as bad as you may think judging by the figure. In fact, some folks like that kind of distortion very much.. :)

In practice, I hardly ever hear distortion with headphones. Some open back models have high enough distortion that I think I hear the distortion products mudding up the bad and mid-range.
 

Johnny2Bad

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As I wrote, we cannot have perfect playback, only lower levels of imperfect playback.

Distortions are a funny thing. I don't mean 'ha-ha' funny, I mean 'whoa that's weird' funny. As Joni wrote, and sang ... " You don't know what you've got, until it's gone." Starting out in the early 1970's, when the quality and affordability of audio reproduction was rapidly advancing, I've had plenty of experiences where a distortion I didn't know I had was removed, and from that point on I could discern it clearly and repeatedly, when I couldn't before.

It's not particularly easy to see when you're living it, versus looking back at it, but I think we are once again experiencing another Golden Age of Audio, over perhaps the last decade, maybe a little less than a decade so far, where rapid advancement in the two most important criteria (SQ and Value) are being achieved. It's a good time to be a music lover.
 

pwjazz

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Just to close the chapter on the Nobsound, this unit is on its way back to China now.
 

confucius_zero

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ES9038Q2M on that nobsound! kinda shows once again that dac chip mean nothing if not well implemented!
 
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amirm

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ES9038Q2M on that nobsound! kinda shows once again that dac chip mean nothing if not well implemented!
If there is one thing we have proven, it is that.
 
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