Revel PerformaBe speakers vs. older Paradigm Signature V3 speakers?

[ahofer]

The Personas sound terrible. I briefly had a demo unit from a dealer and they made my ears bleed. They've been measured at the NRC Anechoic chamber. They sound exactly as they measure--bright and honky.

The Foundation series for all practical purposes is their flagship from an audio engineering standpoint these days, as the original owner bought the company back and designed this line to get the company back on track to their principles.

I had a similar reaction to the persona 3F. The high end in the measurements is consistent with my impressions.

I think it helps to NOT toe them in, but that means you may have a "head in a vice" experience.

Side by side, KEFs and Legacy were much more natural sounding to me.

 

[xirtam2005]

I had a similar reaction to the persona 3F. The high end in the measurements is consistent with my impressions.

I think it helps to NOT toe them in, but that means you may have a "head in a vice" experience.

Side by side, KEFs and Legacy were much more natural sounding to me.

My experience is that Personas are highly dependent on the upstream equipment feeding them. I know that may be contrary to others sentiments on the site, but I could not listen to them with a Sabre DAC or anything considered "highly transparent". They did better with the Anthem STR PRE. Still too bright with Anthem STR Amp (which is how they're typically set up for demos), but did better with Parasound JC amp.

I have zero intentions of judgmentally criticizing anyone (I cannot stand that behavior), just simply wanted to share an experience that I had with these. That is all.

 

[ahofer]

I know that may be contrary to others sentiments on the site,

Not (only) sentiment, it contradicts basic audio science and research. There's no way anything but a broken or intentionally EQ'd DAC would make an audible difference. The FR deviations in the speaker are orders of magnitude greater than we see in any competent DAC.

If you continue to assert DACs have sound signatures, I suggest you pursue it in the thread by that name, but please bring some proper evidence. Nobody else has.

Personas are highly dependent on the upstream equipment feeding them.

You sound like my salesman at Audio Doctor, who didn't believe what the measurements and my ears were clearly telling us, yet insisted that (this non-existent high FR problem) could be "fixed" with the purchase of a Primaluna amplifier.

The idea that electronics have "synergy" with speakers is arrant nonsense purveyed by audio dealers trying to justify high prices for indifferent equipment. Most of us aren't interested in turning this into another forum that supports that sordid project.

The Personas are an example of a speaker deliberately EQ'd to "showroom treble", and they sound bad, and are fatiguing to many listeners, simply for that reason. No 'smooth' DAC or amp can rescue them. Unless you like a non-linear presentation, avoid them. And even if you do, it will sound better it you start with a linear, smooth directivity speaker and EQ to taste. Save money and buy a cheap DAC and a nice class D or inexpensive Yamaha AB amp, because with a blindfold, you wouldn't hear any difference.

 

[xirtam2005]

Not (only) sentiment, it contradicts basic audio science and research. There's no way anything but a broken or intentionally EQ'd DAC would make an audible difference. The FR deviations in the speaker are orders of magnitude greater than we see in any competent DAC.

If you continue to assert DACs have sound signatures, I suggest you pursue it in the thread by that name, but please bring some proper evidence. Nobody else has.

You sound like my salesman at Audio Doctor, who didn't believe what the measurements and my ears were clearly telling us, yet insisted that (this non-existent high FR problem) could be "fixed" with the purchase of a Primaluna amplifier.

The idea that electronics have "synergy" with speakers is arrant nonsense purveyed by audio dealers trying to justify high prices for indifferent equipment. Most of us aren't interested in turning this into another forum that supports that sordid project.

The Personas are an example of a speaker deliberately EQ'd to "showroom treble", and they sound bad, and are fatiguing to many listeners, simply for that reason. No 'smooth' DAC or amp can rescue them. Unless you like a non-linear presentation, avoid them. And even if you do, it will sound better it you start with a linear, smooth directivity speaker and EQ to taste. Save money and buy a cheap DAC and a nice class D or inexpensive Yamaha AB amp, because with a blindfold, you wouldn't hear any difference.

All I know is that when I listened to them, I could not stand how they sounded with certain equipment. They sounded more tolerable with others. They most certainly did NOT sound the same to me. I'm not talking about picking out "subtleties". My ears flat our hurt with certain combos, and it was tolerable with others with the same source material. That is a fact that I experienced with that particular speaker.

 

[fpitas]

Personas are highly dependent on the upstream equipment feeding them. I know that may be contrary to others sentiments on the site, but I could not listen to them with a Sabre DAC or anything considered "highly transparent". They did better with the Anthem STR PRE. Still too bright with Anthem STR Amp (which is how they're typically set up for demos), but did better with Parasound JC amp.

Even granted all that, why would you bother to band-aid the flaws?

 

[xirtam2005]

Even granted all that, why would you bother to band-aid the flaws?

Agreed. Just an observation I wanted to share on them. In general, they are bright/forward speakers. I liked the Signature v3 much better overall.

 

[xirtam2005]

Not (only) sentiment, it contradicts basic audio science and research. There's no way anything but a broken or intentionally EQ'd DAC would make an audible difference. The FR deviations in the speaker are orders of magnitude greater than we see in any competent DAC.

If you continue to assert DACs have sound signatures, I suggest you pursue it in the thread by that name, but please bring some proper evidence. Nobody else has.

You sound like my salesman at Audio Doctor, who didn't believe what the measurements and my ears were clearly telling us, yet insisted that (this non-existent high FR problem) could be "fixed" with the purchase of a Primaluna amplifier.

The idea that electronics have "synergy" with speakers is arrant nonsense purveyed by audio dealers trying to justify high prices for indifferent equipment. Most of us aren't interested in turning this into another forum that supports that sordid project.

The Personas are an example of a speaker deliberately EQ'd to "showroom treble", and they sound bad, and are fatiguing to many listeners, simply for that reason. No 'smooth' DAC or amp can rescue them. Unless you like a non-linear presentation, avoid them. And even if you do, it will sound better it you start with a linear, smooth directivity speaker and EQ to taste. Save money and buy a cheap DAC and a nice class D or inexpensive Yamaha AB amp, because with a blindfold, you wouldn't hear any difference.

Hope you have a nice day.

 

[xirtam2005]

I had a similar reaction to the persona 3F. The high end in the measurements is consistent with my impressions.

I think it helps to NOT toe them in, but that means you may have a "head in a vice" experience.

Side by side, KEFs and Legacy were much more natural sounding to me.

What is your system? Thanks for sharing.

 

[ahofer]

That is a fact that I experienced with that particular speaker.

Your experience is certainly a fact. What is not established, or likely to be a fact, is that the equipment made a difference that you would hear unsighted. All known audio research suggests that you would not. I would say it is possible (many here would not), but I would assign it a 0.1% probability, give or take.

All of us here have had such an experience. Many of us have then tried to do the same experiment unsighted with volume control and realized what our brains/eyes/wallet had done to the signal after the eardrum.

 

[Lsc]

Personas are temperamental speakers. They made my ears bleed when fed with ESS Sabre DAC Benchmark DAC3 HGC and AHB2 - hyper transparent. They sounded MUCH MUCH better with Parasound Halo JC1 and Anthem STR PRE.

I really like the apparent quality of the personas but it was never in consideration. I’m not particularly brand loyal but the Revels imho do a great job of allowing me to have one system for both music and movies.

 

[ahofer]

What is your system? Thanks for sharing.

This was in a showroom. We were using a Krell amp and I think a Lumin DAC, not that it makes much difference.

My systems are:
Roon ROCK->ROPIEEXL->RME-ADI-2>NAD c298 Purifi-based amp->Harbeth SHL5+AE
Roon ROCK->Cambridge Edge streamer/DAC->March Audio Hypex amp-->Revel F228be
RoonROCK ->KEF LS50W
RoonROCK->ROPIEEXL->Pro-Ject DAC-->Genelec 8010s plus sub

But again, speakers and room will make the audible difference with transparent electronics and sufficient power(Which I certainly have to strict thresholds).

 

[ahofer]

Hope you have a nice day.

You've allegedly been here for a year and a half and didn't expect these assertions would be treated with skepticism? huh.

 

[Tom C]

The Personas sound terrible. I briefly had a demo unit from a dealer and they made my ears bleed. They've been measured at the NRC Anechoic chamber. They sound exactly as they measure--bright and honky.

The Foundation series for all practical purposes is their flagship from an audio engineering standpoint these days, as the original owner bought the company back and designed this line to get the company back on track to their principles.

I own the Personas and like how they sound. I don’t know what honky sounds like, but I wouldn’t use that word to describe them, not remotely.
They do sound brighter than my JBL’s, but not as bright as the Revel Ultima system in my SUV. I don’t own Revel floor standers. I expect to like them, but haven’t heard them.
The book shelf version gives you all of the specialness in terms of beryllium tweeter and mid. If you don’t mind adding sub or subs, will probably be the most cost efficient.

 

[Lsc]

You've allegedly been here for a year and a half and didn't expect these assertions would be treated with skepticism? huh.

There is nothing wrong with what he said. He wants to give Paradigm a slight benefit of doubt. No need for folks on here to rag on him like those annoying women or those super nerds who like to wear people down. Just audio gear here.

 

[ahofer]

No need for folks on here to rag on him like those annoying women or those super nerds who like to wear people down.

There was no ragging - just opposing the nonsensical "upstream synergy" talk, as it is harmful.

 

[Lsc]

There was no ragging - just opposing the nonsensical "upstream synergy" talk, as it is harmful.

The nonsensical talk was evangelized by reviewers since the dawn of “high-end” audio. Much like speaker break-in…the same people who believed in speaker break-in for 30+ years are now looking at people who talk about it and component synergy like they are crazy.

All solid state power amps sound the same? If I hear a difference it’s confirmation bias?

I just let people that I don’t know believe what they want. It’ll take time but high end audio is dying anyway…my kids use their iPhones and AirPods vs listening to my (at least I thought) excellent “passive” sound system. We are all relics trying to stay relevant .

 

[ahofer]

the same people who believed in speaker break-in for 30+ years are now looking at people who talk about it and component synergy like they are crazy.

Not sure whom you are addressing. I never believed in break-in (or cable differences), although I'll confess to once thinking that DACs and amps were much more important than they are. At any rate, It's liberating (both mentally and in terms of financial resources) to realize none of that stuff is very important and you can focus on getting the Room/Speaker/EQ right.

 

[Elkerton]

IMHO, unless you want to change for the sake of change, I would keep the Paradigms. While it's a shame we don't have Spinorama plots of them, comparing the anechoic measurements from NRC Canada, show that the Paradigm tweeter has even better dispersion than the Be Revel. I suspect then that the directivity index would be at least as good as the Revel though the Revel has a smoother Listening Window.

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