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Requesting assistance in producing a spinorama

TimVG

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Hi everyone

I'll be performing some measurements today, is there anyone who could help me process my 72 measurements (.mdat) into a spinorama? I don't have the software to give the proper weighting to each measurement to produce the right curves.

Thanks!
 

hardisj

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@napilopez might be able to help. IIRC he uses REW for measurements, then exports them to VituixCAD to get the SPIN data, then back to REW to get the graphics the way he likes them.

At any rate, go ahead and download VCAD now:
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/Software.html

On your REW measurements, name each measurement appropriately. For example, with Horizontal:
0 H
+10 H
.
.
.
+180 H


Then do the same for verticals. Just put the +/- in front of the angle and "H" or "V" for horizontal or vertical. You can export all the measurements at a single time with those names, which VCAD will easily recognize and know what to do with.

I don't know what the limit is for # of measurements for an mdat file is. But you'll probably run in to that. I suggest using separate mdat files for horizontal and vertical measurements just to keep your sanity as well.

Edit: Are you looking for someone to do the spin data for you? Or just asking how to do it?
If the former, just post the mdat files here and I'm sure we can do the legwork for you. Again, just name the measurements appropriately.
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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@napilopez might be able to help. IIRC he uses REW for measurements, then exports them to VituixCAD to get the SPIN data, then back to REW to get the graphics the way he likes them.

At any rate, go ahead and download VCAD now:
https://kimmosaunisto.net/Software/Software.html

On your REW measurements, name each measurement appropriately. For example, with Horizontal:
0 H
+10 H
.
.
.
+180 H


Then do the same for verticals. Just put the +/- in front of the angle and "H" or "V" for horizontal or vertical. You can export all the measurements at a single time with those names, which VCAD will easily recognize and know what to do with.

I don't know what the limit is for # of measurements for an mdat file is. But you'll probably run in to that. I suggest using separate mdat files for horizontal and vertical measurements just to keep your sanity as well.

Edit: Are you looking for someone to do the spin data for you? Or just asking how to do it?
If the former, just post the mdat files here and I'm sure we can do the legwork for you. Again, just name the measurements appropriately.

Thanks. I actually have Vcad installed although I'm quite unfamiliar with all of its options. I'll see if I can figure out how to properly weight each curve (to fill in the missing parts of the 'sphere') although I'll also be sure to post the measurements when I'm done so any of our members can have a go if they wish.
 

napilopez

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@TimVG great to see more people producing spins!

Creating spins in vcad is quite easy, as the software does so automatically. I'll run you through the steps; I figure it can be useful for whenever I get around to writing my how to make quasi-anechoic measurements post
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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@TimVG great to see more people producing spins!

Creating spins in vcad is quite easy, as the software does so automatically. I'll run you through the steps; I figure it can be useful for whenever I get around to writing my how to make quasi-anechoic measurements post

Awesome!!
 

RayDunzl

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I don't know what the limit is for # of measurements for an mdat file is.

You choose:

1605202791342.png


There may be something clunky about changing the value, though.

199 files may be the max.
 
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napilopez

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@TimVG How close were you to the port and woofers for those measurements? The nearfield data isn't lining up quite as nicely with the farfield data as I'd like. Not a huge deal, but just wondering if distance had anything to do with it.
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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@TimVG How close were you to the port and woofers for those measurements? The nearfield data isn't lining up quite as nicely with the farfield data as I'd like. Not a huge deal, but just wondering if distance had anything to do with it.

As close as I could get the capsule to the units - perhaps I should have given a bit more distance.
 

napilopez

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As close as I could get the capsule to the units - perhaps I should have given a bit more distance.

No, the closer the better! less than half an inch is what I normally do, assuming (the woofer won't hit the mic). I think some of the discrepancy might have been from the ground plane method then. The nearfield summation seems to match genelecs data a bit better in the low mids. But tis close enough
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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No, the closer the better! less than half an inch is what I normally do, assuming (the woofer won't hit the mic). I think some of the discrepancy might have been from the ground plane method then. The nearfield summation seems to match genelecs data a bit better in the low mids. But tis close enough

Could very well be, I'll have to do a bit more experimenting soon aiming the capsule and seeing what I can come up with.
 

andreasmaaan

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Just saw your measurements in the other thread @TimVG, well done :)

My approach when measuring standmount speakers using the groundplane method is to elevate the speaker, using as slight a stand as possible and covering its leg(s) in acoustical foam or similar (and of course tilting the speaker down so that the mic remains on the intended measurement axis).

This avoids the main pitfall of the groundplane technique, which is to effectively extend the length of the baffle by a factor of two. Of course, you introduce a new evil - the speaker stand - but this is normally has a far less significant influence on the measurements, and is easier to mitigate with absorption material.
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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Just saw your measurements in the other thread @TimVG, well done :)

My approach when measuring standmount speakers using the groundplane method is to elevate the speaker, using as slight a stand as possible and covering its leg(s) in acoustical foam or similar (and of course tilting the speaker down so that the mic remains on the intended measurement axis).

This avoids the main pitfall of the groundplane technique, which is to effectively extend the length of the baffle by a factor of two. Of course, you introduce a new evil - the speaker stand - but this is normally has a far less significant influence on the measurements, and is easier to mitigate with absorption material.

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely keep working on this (next week). How do you handle measuring past 100° angle? My results seem to get erratic after that.
 

andreasmaaan

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Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely keep working on this (next week). How do you handle measuring past 100° angle? My results seem to get erratic after that.

Could you explain more specifically what's getting erratic beyond 100°?
 

andreasmaaan

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Same time window, same smoothing, yet very different looking results.
View attachment 93091

View attachment 93092

I think what you are seeing there is essentially the truth. As you move beyond 90°, diffraction effects become more dominant. The transition from smooth to erratic happens a bit more abruptly there than I might have expected, although the speaker you're measuring is very square/boxy. So yeh, I suspect this is not a measurement error but simply the reality of the sound field the speakers produce.

To illustrate, here are the horizontal polars of the Genelec 8351A (measured by Princeton's 3D3A lab). The 8351 has better edge rounding/smoothness than the speaker you're measuring, which pushes the erratic behaviour out a bit beyond 90°, but the trend should still be fairly obvious:

1605210437367.png


1605210449425.png
 

andreasmaaan

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@TimVG, on second look, what I do find a bit odd is that your measurements at 110° and 120° show elevated overall treble response relative to your measurements at 90° and 100°. I'm not sure how to explain this, though :confused:
 
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TimVG

TimVG

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@TimVG, on second look, what I do find a bit odd is that your measurements at 110° and 120° show elevated overall treble response relative to your measurements at 90° and 100°. I'm not sure how to explain this, though :confused:

Me neither, I have some work to do it seems. I'm motivated to get better results though.
 

hardisj

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I just replied in your other thread but will copy/paste here so it is all in one place.



Also anything past 100° gets erratic really quickly, I'm not sure what's up with that and if it's a limitation of the ground plane method or if I'm doing something wrong (although I'm not sure what I could be doing wrong).

I see the issue. Look at your IR. Your 0 - 100 degree IRs all start at ~0ms with the window appropriately set to 15ms. All your >=110° start -50ms and have the window placed in the wrong spot. Not a big deal, though. Easy to fix.

Also, make sure to note that not every measurement will be reflection free for the same amount of time. For instance, let's say you have a wall 20 meters to the right of the speaker. At 0 degrees, 15 ms may be adequate because you're at least that far away. But as you close in on 90 degrees to the right of the speaker, you're 18 meters from the side wall now because your microphone is 2 meters to the right of the speaker. You'll have to adjust each window individually to make sure you take care of that issue.

Here are your results and my notes with corrections:

0 Degrees
FR:

View attachment 93096

IR:
View attachment 93098


Notice in your 0 degrees those ripples? That is an indication that a reflection or something else has creeped in to your measurement. Looking at your IR, you can see your windows are not set up properly.

Move the left side in like so:

View attachment 93100

now you have this:

View attachment 93101

Which fixes those LF ripples (errors). Original = red. New (fixed) = blue.

View attachment 93102



Do this for ALL your measurements.







110° Measurements:

Similar situation. The windows need to be corrected.

started with this:

View attachment 93104

View attachment 93105




Adjust the IR Window to begin at the initial impulse and end at the first reflection:

You can see that if I keep the window time of 15ms, there is still a strong reflection at about -40ms

View attachment 93107


Shifted the IR window but shorted it as well to 11ms
View attachment 93108

and now you have the new response curve that is much more smooth (thanks to the window being placed at the right spot):

Green = original
Blue = corrected

View attachment 93109







That's it. Pretty simple. Just tedious.

Hopefully that helps. I kind of rushed through this to show you what's up but should give you enough of a clue to correct the others.

Note, also you'll be better served to adjust the starting time but I didn't do that here because it might confuse you in this first cut.
 

andreasmaaan

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I see the issue. Look at your IR. Your 0 - 100 degree IRs all start at ~0ms with the window appropriately set to 15ms. All your >=110° start -50ms and have the window placed in the wrong spot. Not a big deal, though. Easy to fix.

Good spot :)
 

napilopez

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I think what you are seeing there is essentially the truth. As you move beyond 90°, diffraction effects become more dominant. The transition from smooth to erratic happens a bit more abruptly there than I might have expected, although the speaker you're measuring is very square/boxy. So yeh, I suspect this is not a measurement error but simply the reality of the sound field the speakers produce.

To illustrate, here are the horizontal polars of the Genelec 8351A (measured by Princeton's 3D3A lab). The 8351 has better edge rounding/smoothness than the speaker you're measuring, which pushes the erratic behaviour out a bit beyond 90°, but the trend should still be fairly obvious:

View attachment 93094

View attachment 93095

This is part of it, but it's also a specific quirk or REW measurements. See below! A good FYI for anyone else looking to measure their own speakers.


Same time window, same smoothing, yet very different looking results.
View attachment 93091

View attachment 93092

Ah yes! I used to have the same problem past 90 degrees @TimVG . It was especially prevalent with box-shaped speakers.

What's happening is that by default, REW sets the reference point/ t=0 on the impulse response based on the loudest sound -- when the impulse response peaks.

Snag_237cc7.png


However, once you go past 90 degrees, it's often the case that the reflection off the nearest wall is louder than the first sound hitting the microphone. So REW gets confused. It thinks the IR peak is at the reflection, rather than when the sine sweep begins.

To illustrate this more clearly, here is the difference between the H100 and H110 measurements:

H100 vs H110.png


This can't be explained by simple diffraction. Note how the treble is ~5dB higher at H110 than at H100.

Taking a look at the impulse response, we see the problem. Here it is for H100:

1605211097944.png


There are some reflections that would ideally be windowed out, but this is scaled to show the worst of it. It's still roughly usable as is, though there's a notable reflection at 9ms.

But now look at H110:
1605211175243.png


Yikes! This is not usable.

But now look what happens when we "go back in time" to when the sweep actually starts


It looks just like the earlier measurement.

So the actual result, once adjusted for timing, should look like this:
1605211809328.png


Tada! The expected result. So we'd just need to go back in time for all those measurements, sighs :)

Luckily, there's an easy solution for future measurements. In the REW measurement window, set the timing reference to begin at when the impulse response starts, not when it peaks.

1605211879513.png


If you have a dual channel mic and can do a loopback measurement for accurate timing even better, but the Umik-1 can't do that. Setting t=0 at IR start has sufficed for all the spins I've posted here. As a general rule, it's good to check the impulse response when something seems amiss in a few of the measurements.

EDIT: @hardisj beat me to it! Glad we both spotted it though!
 
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