Recommend Amp and DAC for Hifimen Sundara

[shmagoogly]

If you take a holistic approach, measurements must still be considered and the Modi 3+ costs less and has better performance than the Modi Multibit in every way measurable.

Good point, the Modi 3+ is only 40% of the price of the MB variant - OP may be interested in saving some $$$ which is hard to beat.

I'll just leave you with this. I gifted two of my brothers a Magni & Modi 3+ (so that's two pairs, gifted). Each of them own a single pair of Hifi cans, the Sundaras. They ABSOLUTELY love the stack. Some months later, after they had listened to my Modi MB (using Sundaras of course), they bought their own Modi MB and have since sold their Modi 3+.

I am not here to say @devopsprodude is wrong, he is absolutely correct, the measurements were taken and posted. I am just reinstating that our ears may not capture everything that measurements may implicate to be relatively bad performing.

It's hard for me not to feel like this question is close to home when myself and both of my brothers unanimously ditched our Modi 3+ for the better sounding Modi MB paired to our Sundaras. But this is where I stop.

OP, best of luck!

@devopsprodude thanks for bringing up those all around good points! I had never seen the measurements before until you've brought them up - my ears (and my brothers' ears) wouldn't have discerned otherwise as we preferred the sound of the MB.

 

[devopsprodude]

@devopsprodude thanks for bringing up those all around good points! I had never seen the measurements before until you've brought them up - my ears (and my brothers' ears) wouldn't have discerned otherwise as we preferred the sound of the MB.

Of course, now that you know that the Modi 3+ tested better, you should ask yourself if the Modi MB actually sounded better or is the flawed design coloring the sound? I know if it was me, I would want to figure that out, because the way I see it, if an amp or DAC is coloring the sound, it's not doing what it should be doing.

 

[shmagoogly]

Of course, now that you know that the Modi 3+ tested better, you should ask yourself if the Modi MB actually sounded better or is the flawed design coloring the sound? I know if it was me, I would want to figure that out, because the way I see it, if an amp or DAC is coloring the sound, it's not doing what it should be doing.

I completely agree with you.

The signal for sound should traverse the audio chain with the least amount of manipulation (colorization) so as to produce a faithful true-to-source output. Tangent: Unless of course purposeful colorization is intended in which case plenty of audio gear is available for that endeavor (I am looking at you, tube amps).

Ummm from the A/B testing I did against the Modi 3+, using the MB I could hear a bit of a high frequency roll-off which I didn't mind when using my HD800S which were a bit too bright to begin with. Also, the lower mids came out a little more in the Modi MB which I liked (this may be a factor of colorization). Sufficeth to say, I guess the overall tonality got a tad bit "warmer". Other than that, I can't think of other possible colorization made by the Modi MB (I'd have to re-visit the two and test). This was tested on my Topping A90 which is really transparent and the source was my PC using Tidal to stream.

 

[devopsprodude]

Ummm from the A/B testing I did against the Modi 3+, using the MB I could hear a bit of a high frequency roll-off which I didn't mind when using my HD800S which were a bit too bright to begin with. Also, the lower mids came out a little more in the Modi MB which I liked (this may be a factor of colorization). Sufficeth to say, I guess the overall tonality got a tad bit "warmer". Other than that, I can't think of other possible colorization made by the Modi MB (I'd have to re-visit the two and test). This was tested on my Topping A90 which is really transparent and the source was my PC using Tidal to stream.

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use EQ on your PC to get things to where you liked? I think there are a number of free apps on Windows you can do that with, that also come with AutoEQ profiles pre-configured. On MacOS, there are a number of options, but I'm using SoundSource, which is $20, but worth the money.

 

[Weeb Labs]

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use EQ on your PC to get things to where you liked? I think there are a number of free apps on Windows you can do that with, that also come with AutoEQ profiles pre-configured. On MacOS, you're pretty much limited to SoundSource, which is $20, but worth the money.

There are actually a plethora of EQ utilities for OS X, along with a tool for exporting AutoEQ profiles to the free EqMac.

 

[devopsprodude]

There are actually a plethora of EQ utilities for OS X, along with a tool for exporting AutoEQ profiles to the free EqMac.

Cool, but SoundSource is well worth the $20.

 

[devopsprodude]

There are actually a plethora of EQ utilities for OS X, along with a tool for exporting AutoEQ profiles to the free EqMac.

Changed my comment above. For some reason when I looked at that list of possible ways to use AutoEQ on MacOS, I completely misread it. Anyhow, SoundSource has enough features that I feel like it's worth the $20. Like I can have multiple headphone profiles loaded and just need to flip between them. Can also set up multiple 31 band graphic equalizers and enable them or disable them depending on headphones being used.

 

[ColloquialRobot]

What is good pairing for these Sundara

I've been very happy with my Modi 3+/Magni Heresy stack. I don't have a lot of experience with alternate options as I've mostly been running straight from my AV receivers until I bought the Sundara.

 

[shmagoogly]

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you use EQ on your PC to get things to where you liked? I think there are a number of free apps on Windows you can do that with, that also come with AutoEQ profiles pre-configured. On MacOS, there are a number of options, but I'm using SoundSource, which is $20, but worth the money.

I tried playing with EQ a bit on my PC using Equalizer APO and trying to lessen the brightness of my HD 800S cause it was picking up everything under the sun using the D90/A90 stack - talk about an ultra clean and transparent rendering of signal. I needed more warmth to make prolonged listening sessions less fatiguing. As a ROON subscriber, I even fiddled with ROON's built-in DSP where I applied Parametric EQ values from oratory1990's list (https://www.reddit.com/r/oratory1990/wiki/index/list_of_presets).

In the end, the sound got a bit better, but the purist in me did not accept the fact that I had to play with all this stuff to "correct" my sound. I didn't want to keep fussing with EQ - I know this is a huge topic of contention, but I lean on the side of just letting all the hardware do the work (sans EQ).

Hence, the further I went into the rabbit hole, I ended up accumulating too much audio gear than I'd like to admit. 5 headphones, 5 DACS, and 3 DAC/Amp later, I go through my HiFi locker and just switch my gear to my listening preference. It's madness I know. And for the Sundaras (and my bright ass HD 800S), my Modi MB and Bifrost 2 produced my preferred sound.

The only place I want to apply DSP is for my 2.1 speaker setup in my living room where room correction is a must.

But like you and @ColloquialRobot have stated, the Modi 3+/Magni stack is still an excellent choice especially for the price.

 

[Nango]

My final recommendation: SCHIIT Stack (Modi MB + Heresy). It will run you for about $350 ($249 + $99).

Agree. Plus 300-500$ for a good source, that's it. Do not underestimate the source.

 

[Veri]

This whole thread reads like head-fi. Multibit is better-er, get a "good source", why not get a reclocker or external word clock and some USB decrapifiers while you're at it?? Just ridiculous.

 

[pk500]

This whole thread reads like head-fi. Multibit is better-er, get a "good source", why not get a reclocker or external word clock and some USB decrapifiers while you're at it?? Just ridiculous.

A bit harsh, considering the name of this site is Audio Science Review. The whole purpose of this site is quantifiable analysis of audio gear performance -- not just "playing it by ear."

Head-fi isn't the only place online where audio dorks like us proudly fly our flag.

 

[Weeb Labs]

This whole thread reads like head-fi. Multibit is better-er, get a "good source", why not get a reclocker or external word clock and some USB decrapifiers while you're at it?? Just ridiculous.

I have noticed this trend on many similar threads. When the demonstrably adequate explanations and recommendations have been made, they are ignored by subsequent posters, who often go on to extoll the benefits of subjectively evaluated hardware (such as R2R DACs) or sometimes outright snake oil.

I am by no means suggesting that enthusiasts of the subjective persuasion don't have every right to share their opinions but it would be nice to see people acknowledge or engage with what has previously been said rather than ignore it completely.

 

[Veri]

A bit harsh, considering the name of this site is Audio Science Review. The whole purpose of this site is quantifiable analysis of audio gear performance -- not just "playing it by ear."

The moment people start recommending things that are in no way necessary or are proven to improve, anything really, I am irked. This is no place for pseudoscience peddling or gear acquisition echo chambers, there's plenty of those kinds of websites already around....

 

[pk500]

The moment people start recommending things that are in no way necessary or are proven to improve, anything really, I am irked. This is no place for pseudoscience peddling or gear acquisition echo chambers, there's plenty of those kinds of websites already around....

Fair enough.

 

[shmagoogly]

The moment people start recommending things that are in no way necessary or are proven to improve, anything really, I am irked. This is no place for pseudoscience peddling or gear acquisition echo chambers, there's plenty of those kinds of websites already around....

Agreed.

The OP asked for possible recommendations. After examining the responses, I think everyone faithfully provided their recommendations.

I may have over-provided on my pitch for my recommendation because I provided my opinion on gear that I've put hundreds of hours on and own. I don't recommend nor claim to know anything about anything I don't own or have not used. Nor do I condone accumulating audio gear.

In simplest terms, you ask a friend for shopping advice on things they know about. It is not enough to say "Buy item 'A', because I think its good". Further, you do something more intuitive and natural which is "Buy item 'A', because I have used it and these are the pro's and cons... this is how it compares to item 'B' and item 'C'". It provides more insight.

The OP has lots of great and excellent flavors of audio gear to choose from. I threw my 2 cents in here - done.

I am new here and I think I may have ended up the butt-end of an inside joke in this community. I voiced my opinion on DAC technologies i.e. delta-sigma and R2R and provided earnest opinion on the matter in which I thought would earnestly give the OP something to think about, but I realize now and from hereon I won't do anything like this again.

I'll just try and talk about audio gear as it pertains to each item and not necessarily its internals and mechanics - feel like I am walking on egg shells here.

 

[Nango]

What is wrong in saying to not underestimate the source?

 

[zyghom]

I was using ZEN DAC (there was not enough power) the I bought ZEN CAN - then it was super nice.
But later I sold ZEN and bought Sabaj D5 - now it is perfect solution because Sabaj D5 also works as DAC for my speakers amp.

 

[Nango]

Despite the quality of such gear I think at these px levels is it way too expensive. It would be certainly a question for s separate thread to find out which should be an appropriate level but given the px ratio in tons of parts in AliExpress and other similar markets etc. is around 1:20 this price would equal to somewhere in the area of 10.000$ equivalent if manufactured in a western country. Isn't it?

 

[domijack281]

Hi I am new to this site. I am quite new to hi-fi headphone world. I got Hifiman Sundara and ifi hip-dac. They sound very good paired together using balanced cable. I wonder what am I missing by not going with more powerful desktop amp?

This small device seems to provide up to 660 mW of power according to ifi website. Its pretty loud enough already at 10'o clock dial. The bass has great slam, the impact is little on lighter side compared to speakers but turning on xbass gives it decent oomph when listening to songs like Your Power by Billie Eilish.
I considered side - grade with Zen CAN. Even though hip-dac has no line-outs for amp, ifi told me hip-dac as dac can be paired with Zen CAN using its balanced output to balanced input on zen-can and recommend tuning dialing at least to 3 oclock for clean signal.

I still also have stock SE cable with quarter inch jack adapter, so I could go as well with good SE DAC/AMP stacks. Not sure if spending more on balanced makes sense for entry-level headphones like Sundar though and I still would need most likely a new cable or 4.4mm-XLR adapter as most balanced gears come rather with XLR output than 4.4mm like iFi.

I also have IEM (Fiio FH5) but don't use them with hip-dac. They are too sensitive at low volume and going too low has impact on channel stereo balance. I just use Apple lightening DAC with them. I think I'd rather spend little more than double on closed back DT770 for use in noise office as extras than 60+ IEMatch.