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Question about debunking of myth that higher sampling rate increases time accuracy

xaxxon

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(The whole video is great for people who want to better understand how digital audio works)

He talks about how you don't need to have a sample at the start point of the sound - i.e. that the start times of sounds aren't quantized to the sample rate. I totally get that and his animation is great for explaining that.

However, his samples seem to move perfectly smoothly and aren't quantized to available bit-depth values at his sample positions.

Would this mean that the start time of a sound is quantized to some combination of bit depth and sample rate?

Of course there's only one meaningful follow up and that is "if that's true, does it matter?" I'm guessing the answer is "no because you can't tell that fine grained a change"
 

DVDdoug

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However, his samples seem to move perfectly smoothly and aren't quantized to available bit-depth values at his sample positions.
I didn't watch the video but the audio signal into an ADC is "smooth" continuous analog and the sound out of a DAC is "smooth" continuous analog. *



* I had a soundcard hooked-up to a soundcard once and the output of this particular soundcard was NOT filtered and I could see the stair-steps. I was shocked! But the sound was fine and after I thought about it, I realized that the harmonics were ultrasonic so they wouldn't be audible. (Plus the amplifier may have done some filtering, and the speakers would provide mechanical filtering.)
 

voodooless

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Let’s imagine we only have one sample, sampling one time interval of a sine wave. Let’s say the value is 6. Now we shift the sine wave by a small amount. What would happen to that sample value? It would move up or down a bit. So go from 6 to maybe 6.03. Now if we can’t quantize 6.03 exactly we introduce an error. but this error is not just an error in value, but also in time, because if 6.03 gets quantized to 6.05, that value might be the correct value just a few ns later on (or earlier). Better quantization would reduce the error.

This leads to the realization that time resolution is dependent on bit depth, not sample rate.

The excellent video btw, is probably the single most quoted video on ASR. Monty is basically an ASR celebrity;)
 
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xaxxon

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This leads to the realization that time resolution is dependent on bit depth, not sample rate.
ok, so my takeaway was correct?

Also, do you know how to do the math as to what the time quantization is for 44.1/16?
 
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xaxxon

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sound out of a DAC is "smooth" continuous analog. *
Right, but how accurate it is to the original waveform is my question - not whether there is stair stepping or whatever (which that video shows very clearly why there is not)
 

voodooless

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ok, so my takeaway was correct?

Also, do you know how to do the math as to what the time quantization is for 44.1/16?
See here:

 

DonH56

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See e.g. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/digital-audio-jitter-fundamentals.1922/

Note I do not show the filtered output of the DAC which is what every real-world DAC box produces. But it explains how time resolution is related to bit depth and not sampling rate.

As long as Nyquist is satisfied, i.e. sampling strictly greater than twice the highest signal component (bandwidth), it is accurate to the original waveform to the limit of bit depth and accuracy of the conversion (so noise, distortion, etc. will degrade the fidelity, just like in any other audio component).
 

Speedskater

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What confuses a lot of people is:
They try to visualize an audio signal at or very close to half Nyquist. They overlook the needed low-pass filter.
Things look a lot better with a 20 kHz signal thru a 44.1 system.
 

kongwee

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All are scope are having at least 1Mhz speed, nowaday you have 10Mhz easily affordable to you or class. See how you scope will see if you blast sine, square, saw wave at half of your scope frequency.
 

earlevel

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He talks about how you don't need to have a sample at the start point of the sound - i.e. that the start times of sounds aren't quantized to the sample rate. I totally get that and his animation is great for explaining that.

However, his samples seem to move perfectly smoothly and aren't quantized to available bit-depth values at his sample positions.

Would this mean that the start time of a sound is quantized to some combination of bit depth and sample rate?

Of course there's only one meaningful follow up and that is "if that's true, does it matter?" I'm guessing the answer is "no because you can't tell that fine grained a change"
"The start time of sound..."—that's a dicey proposition to start with. Let's say I'm recording myself, digitally, playing piano and singing. There will be a gap of "nothing"—not really nothing but probably a little hiss of the mic preamps, too low to hear. I could digitally edit that out, so it's maybe a few zeros, then the rising samples of my first note. But even that, if you zoom in closely enough, probably starts out below the noise floor of the mic and preamps. Or, if I'm using a gate, then the gate dictates where the rising edge is, but will lag reality. Not trying to be annoying, it's just ambiguous exactly where a sound "starts" out of supposed silence. So, is it really that important that the digital recording "starts" where the sound does? considering your ear or a gate circuit can't tell, exactly?

Further, strictly speaking, any signal that is time limited by definition can't be frequency limited—and since the sampling theorem requires that the signal be bandlimited to below half the sample rate, you can't sample anything with an arbitrary start time. (Yes, even a 1 kHz sine wave that starts at an arbitrary time is not bandlimited.) OK, so we slap a lowpass filter in front. Well, if we continue to be a stickler, a perfect linear phase lowpass would require an infinite time in front of the start, so we're screwed there, but let's get realistic and say that a practical filter won't be perfect, but it will only be wrong for a short time, linear phase or otherwise.

And that's the bottom line—we get close enough, and we don't even try to catch the supposed first sample anyway.

So, back to sampling: The most important thing to understand is that individual samples don't mean much. It's the train of samples that matters. The original signal itself is modulated by a pulse train (PCM—Pulse Code Modulation; pulse amplitude modulation, coverted to "codes"—digital values). That's the key to why sample rate doesn't determine timing resolution (as long as bandwidth is below half the sample rate—this restriction itself puts limits on how fast timing features can change).

Hope that helps, but let me know if you would like me to expand on any of that (especially the last past, I suspect).
 
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g-force

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I think this is a fine explanation and puts many current debates to rest. I have been 'aware' of the digi/anal debate for over a couple of decades... Then came all the up-sampling noise. But for me the only thing that really mattered was content. ...And a philosophically OK pair of headphones with speakers that were in that ballpark ( Stax and Celestion 5000's ) that sounded real decent at perhaps 'energetic' conversation levels. The more interesting part of the chain still seems to be an on-the-ball producer and engineer; whether for initial or some sort of 'artistic remastering'...
re: content: If there isn't a lot of FZ floating out over the ether; the listening environment is generally impoverished.
 
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