PSI monitors

[Martijn W]

yeah my room is well treated. i am not doing a lot of measuring. for me the added value of each monitor is pretty clear as i use them a lot.

i am not so sure about why, but i suspect that the phase response makes a difference in clarity. i use the neumann kh 310 with kh 750 and ma-1. midrange is significantly more clear when employing the phase correction (or actually correcting the phase deviations in the time domain with FIR filters). but even then the psi midrange is more clear and natural/lively.

i think there is not much going wrong with how both monitors are implemented in the room. in room response with the neumanns is about 20hz - 20khz +/- 3dB and 100hz - 20khz +/-1,5dB, after implementing MA-1.

it is actually flatter below 100hz if use a flat target response.

don’t get me wrong i really like Neumann. PSI is just higher on my ‘favorite audio brand list’ ..

 

[james57]

this is an old model of the a21.


i don’t understand how neumann can have such a good reputation on this forum and PSI not. i believe everybody who has worked on PSI will acknowledge the excellent value and quality of PSI monitoring solutions.

It amazes me how much more transparant PSI A21-M (V4) reproduces the midrange than Neumann KH 310.

i own both and know them pretty well.
i could not believe as psi a21-m is a 2-way monitor with 8” midwoofer and neumann kh 310 has a separate midrange dome driver. but midrange is veiled compared to the PSI.

Also PSI high is more natural. neumann sounds chemical/artificial in comparison.

bass is actually good on both. psi more spacious, neumann more dry.
both very revealing in their own way.

Hey I like them

 

[FeddyLost]

this is an old model of the a21.

I'm afraid that they have measured newest Ms3.
If you check out picture in mentioned article, you'll see blue phrase about handmade nedymium psi tweeter. This was mentioned only with Ms3.
Also bass reflex port looks like new gen.
And finally, I'd not send older revision to magazine review if I was manufacturer.

i don’t understand how neumann can have such a good reputation on this forum and PSI not. i believe everybody who has worked on PSI will acknowledge the excellent value and quality of PSI monitoring solutions.

You just answered: it's not a forum for sound engineers, but more for customers who can read graphs.
I think PSI can achieve better measured results, but see no reason, because their feedback are purchased speakers, not some synthetic scores.
I understand their point of view very well.
So, i'd not feel anything regarding these reputations/values because only translation of your tracks tells what is more useful.

Also PSI high is more natural. neumann sounds chemical/artificial in comparison

It's all up to professional opinions of people working with monitors day by day.
Customer listening to finished tracks often never heard raw live source.
Personally I have no competence to make such decisions and I understand it very clear.

 

[Martijn W]

oh my bad if it was the latest version that was reviewed.

in your other comments i have trouble understanding your point. sorry for not going further into it.

 

[james57]

I'm afraid that they have measured newest Ms3.
If you check out picture in mentioned article, you'll see blue phrase about handmade nedymium psi tweeter. This was mentioned only with Ms3.
Also bass reflex port looks like new gen.
And finally, I'd not send older revision to magazine review if I was manufacturer.

You just answered: it's not a forum for sound engineers, but more for customers who can read graphs.
I think PSI can achieve better measured results, but see no reason, because their feedback are purchased speakers, not some synthetic scores.
I understand their point of view very well.
So, i'd not feel anything regarding these reputations/values because only translation of your tracks tells what is more useful.

It's all up to professional opinions of people working with monitors day by day.
Customer listening to finished tracks often never heard raw live source.
Personally I have no competence to make such decisions and I understand it very clear.

You just answered: it's not a forum for sound engineers, but more for customers who can read graphs.... I like to call this Tech-Fi

 

[Hmast]

Disappointing as expected.
Crossing these drivers at 2,4 KHz is too oldschool.
Actually, I think that they have to redesign A17 and A21 completely for long ago as most affordable and popular models, but they started from 3-ways due to some reasons.
I've downloaded specsheets from their site for different A21 - M3,M4,M5,Ms1,Ms2 and I've seen almost no difference.
Only distortion peak at 200 Hz is removed, no significant improvements in distortion curve.

from the times of Studer A3 presented in 1998.
Decent modern waveguide like Neumann uses would be very beneficial, but if engineer decided that THD < 1.4% (90Hz-12kHz) @ 90 Db/m is enough, then why should they change 25YO design?
I've mentioned that once I've read unedited impressions from reviewer, testing A21s as ordinary almost fullrange speakers, results was mediocre. Most probably due to their distortion of midwoofer. Below is official specs @ 90 Db/m. I'd say that if you are going over this SPL, mids will be messy.
View attachment 253215

A lot of strong competitors now present on the market.
Unfortunately, they are too small and boutique type company, so R&D investments leading to crucial redesign of shoebox-like nearfields would return ... never.

I don't get why distortion is a problem for you. The figures are very good aren't they?

I took dist figures from Genelec 8361A to compare. They are similar:

Or maybe I don't know how to count, but I read -45db for Genelec as well in the mids (85db minus ~40db). So why would they be messy with the PSIs?

Other figures from Genelec 8361A with about the same results of -45db:

I do count the decibels from the signal curve indeed.

 

[FeddyLost]

The figures are very good aren't they?

But industry now offers better.
Actually we can look at these numbers from few points of view.

1) if we need right tool for our job, we don't care about these exact distortion numbers, because standard working volume for nearfields is lower than 90 Db@1m per single speaker and we will compare distortion at different SPLs if we can.
And ultimately we'll decide what to keep after some jobs successfully done and accepted by customers.

2) if we think these speakers are "perfectly accurate mid field monitor" and will accordingly use them as usual fullrange stereo pair, then we'll go into different case, where 8361 will have more clarity in midrange (500-2K Hz), but it's more expensive. A21 on Thomann cost between 8341 and 8351.

The main problem IMO is that A21 cost a freakin lot and still have typical problem of big woofer crossed high.
If we'd not have such strong competition in this price range, I'd not point this at all.

 

[Martijn W]

this ‘big woofer crossed high problem’ sounds exactly like my way of thinking before i heard them. did you hear them?

 

[FeddyLost]

did you hear them?

Not this revision, much older one.
If I'd need big nearfields w/o subwoofer, like Blank's use case, I'd consider them though.

As an owner of their equipment, I'd like to see test results as good as possible, while I understand that this may be not commercially justified.
Maybe with SB Acoustic CAC or even textreme series they would make somehow better speakers.

 

[Hmast]

The 8351B + 7360A just arrived

However, the GLM kit is still missing. Hopefully I can put my hands on it next week.

I replaced the PSI A17s with the Gens, same listening position, same distance. What I can say after a couple of hours of listening: mids and trebles are... spectacularly close. It's quite surprising as I was expecting Genelec to sound "dry" as many used to say/thing. Honestly it's very close. I cannot say the Gens are superior, it's a very close match.

Note I'm listening at about 90cm so it never gets very loud so distortion is in control in both setups. At this close distance I try to never go over 90db to protect my ears.

Stereo image is outstanding in both setups. I was curious to see if Gens' image could be better than the already "perfect" PSI's image. My current statement is "it's great and equal in both setups".

One thing about the PSIs is there's a big difference when I move in my chair vertically (you know that moment when you move from a very bad position after hours of working to "come on sit fit" and you put your butt back to the right place on the chair . With the Gens I can't hear any change. Vertical dispersion is awesome.

Bass however... well, I can hear plenty of new information in the bass area. I expected this and it delivers. The subwoofer is enabled and I didn't try without. I'ill wait for the GLM kit to play music with/without. I set up the sub with my ears so it is really not EQued and leveled with fidelity.

The GLM kit will certainly work on the phase changes, EQ mids and allow a great sub integration. Can't wait.

 

[FeddyLost]

Bass however... well, I can hear plenty of new information in the bass area. I expected this and it delivers. The subwoofer is enabled and I didn't try without.

Did you try to compare both solutions with equal F3 LF cut-off?
It would be interesting.

 

[always learning]

Just thought I would share my new a23m psi- e15 rythmik setup, extremely happy with it btw. and the screen and speakers are leveled, its my pic taking skills that are questionable

Hi James,
Congratulations on a great choice.
Can I ask you if you have encountered any port noise or organ pipe effect in this new design from PSI Audio Flow Guide?
The design port looks interesting. But there is so little information about it.

Also, I would really appreciate it if you could send some additional photos very close to the port. To see the back wall. Maybe even inside the port with a flash.
I don't have a chance to see and listening them in the store, but I would like to study their construction in more detail before choosing.
I would be grateful for any information, if anyone has it about the design of this port.

Here's what PSI says:
"Have you already heard the benefits of the flow guide, our new development used on the A23-M?
The flow guide helps the woofer delivering more punchy low end, freeing the bass reflex and avoiding projection of air coming from it."

 

[james57]

Hi James,
Congratulations on a great choice.
Can I ask you if you have encountered any port noise or organ pipe effect in this new design from PSI Audio Flow Guide?
The design port looks interesting. But there is so little information about it.

Also, I would really appreciate it if you could send some additional photos very close to the port. To see the back wall. Maybe even inside the port with a flash.
I don't have a chance to see and listening them in the store, but I would like to study their construction in more detail before choosing.
I would be grateful for any information, if anyone has it about the design of this port.

Here's what PSI says:
"Have you already heard the benefits of the flow guide, our new development used on the A23-M?
The flow guide helps the woofer delivering more punchy low end, freeing the bass reflex and avoiding projection of air coming from it."

HI KN, I can't say I encountered some pipe effect and from what I saw from the cal file from the factory, those speakers are amazingly flat. As I may have mentioned even with some basic room treatment I have a big spike around 45-50 Hz from my room and was able to correct it with my sub. People always talk about how deep the sub goes but rarely mention that by choosing your xover point you can in fact create an alternate speaker placement. My sub is currently set at 140 Hz and since I am running a 2.1 setup with the sub in front, localization does not bother me. The bass that this speaker generates is really good, drums from Metallica are in another league with this. Now is this from the fancy port, I don't know.

 

[always learning]

HI KN, I can't say I encountered some pipe effect and from what I saw from the cal file from the factory, those speakers are amazingly flat. As I may have mentioned even with some basic room treatment I have a big spike around 45-50 Hz from my room and was able to correct it with my sub. People always talk about how deep the sub goes but rarely mention that by choosing your xover point you can in fact create an alternate speaker placement. My sub is currently set at 140 Hz and since I am running a 2.1 setup with the sub in front, localization does not bother me. The bass that this speaker generates is really good, drums from Metallica are in another league with this. Now is this from the fancy port, I don't know.

Thank you so much for such a quick response.
Special thanks for the photo.
May I ask you to take another one photo, from a closer distance, right at one of the port hole level, and with flash?

And congratulations again to get a such great system!

 

[james57]

Thank you so much for such a quick response.
Special thanks for the photo.
May I ask you to take another one photo, from a closer distance, right at one of the port hole level, and with flash?

And congratulations again to get a such great system!

iphone will not provide a better pic, sorry thats all I have.

 

[Martijn W]

today i picked up A17-M (current model).
wow!! i love it right away!!

That means I now i have A17-M (2021) and A21-M (2020 V4).

i purchased 17 because 21 needs a bit more distance than is ideal in this setup.
before i sell the a21 pair i will do some comparisons and report back here..

first impressions:
- less dynamic (a21 is really impressive)
- less power, but more than expected
- impressive low-end (yet not as 21)
- extremely detailed yet natural midrange!!!
- nice ‘n smooth on top!

 

[thewas]

Fresh PSI A21-M measurements by Sound & Recording:

View attachment 253110


View attachment 253104View attachment 253105View attachment 253111View attachment 253106View attachment 253107View attachment 253103View attachment 253108View attachment 253109

Source: https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipment/psi-a21-m-grosser-nahfeldmonitor-im-test/

Fully review is now online free to read

PSI A21-M – Großer Nahfeldmonitor im Test

Die Anfänge des Schweizer Lautsprecherherstellers PSI Audio gehen bis in das Jahr 1975 zurück, als Firmengründer Alain Roux noch während des Studiums in Lausanne begann, seine ersten Lautsprecher zu entwickeln. Neben vielen Eigenprodukten im HiFi- und auch im PA-Sektor entwickelte und...

www.soundandrecording.de

 

[Pearljam5000]

It's pretty expensive for what it is

 

[dfuller]

Fully review is now online free to read

PSI A21-M – Großer Nahfeldmonitor im Test

Die Anfänge des Schweizer Lautsprecherherstellers PSI Audio gehen bis in das Jahr 1975 zurück, als Firmengründer Alain Roux noch während des Studiums in Lausanne begann, seine ersten Lautsprecher zu entwickeln. Neben vielen Eigenprodukten im HiFi- und auch im PA-Sektor entwickelte und...

www.soundandrecording.de

Not bad. Directivity error looks way worse in the cea2034 than in the isobars.

Not very loud, but it's a smallish two way. I wouldn't expect it to be.

 

[Martijn W]

Well it is one of the finest monotors I have owned and used.

And I owned k+h, Neumann, Genelec, Barefoot, geithain,

Also how is it not loud? I remember it to be extremely loud