Exactly this. It's nothing more than an illusion. Conjured up by the brain to 'make 'some' sense' of the situation in front of you. It happens to be music playing generally, and most of us associate this with perhaps the setting of that environment and the way it was recorded, and there'll be audible clues in the recording we pick up on. Our minds go to work and voilà, imaginary sound stage now in front, plus that's where the speakers are usually situated. A lot of the time musicians are in different rooms recording in isolation unless it's a live setting or the way the bands recording it. How it's been mastered in the studio will take it another step away from what it actually sounded like in reality to something that sounds as good as possible to the engineer. Whichever way your speakers are, it may sound good, but it's anything but a real stage.I think it's important to recognize that it's a psychoacoustic effect.
Exactly this. It's nothing more than an illusion. Conjured up by the brain to 'make 'some' sense' of the situation in front of you. It happens to be music playing generally, and most of us associate this with perhaps the setting of that environment and the way it was recorded, and there'll be audible clues in the recording we pick up on. Our minds go to work and voilà, imaginary sound stage now in front, plus that's where the speakers are usually situated. A lot of the time musicians are in different rooms recording in isolation unless it's a live setting or the way the bands recording it. How it's been mastered in the studio will take it another step away from what it actually sounded like in reality to something that sounds as good as possible to the engineer. Whichever way your speakers are, it may sound good, but it's anything but a real stage.
Despite my perhaps pessimistic view and choice of words, I totally agree with you. It is a wonderful experience at best and as you say, some seem to create much better images than others.That doesn't make it any less satisfying. And when it comes to the ability of conjuring this illusion, not all speakers are created equal.
As I have read more and more posts here and on other discussion forums it has become obvious that there are almost as many definitions of sound stage and imaging as there are listeners.What does "precise sound stage" even mean?
I have used the term in the past, as a way to suggest the instrument placement within the 'image' was stable over time (or, more likely, frequency). I've come to realize that such instability is about room reflections, so more about the room reflections and even/uneven directivity than some other intrinsic characteristic of the speaker (or the electronics, which I think I believed at one time).What does "precise sound stage" even mean? Unless you were in the room and saw where the mix engineer had stuff panned, how would you know if the "soundstage" was "precise"?
100%I have used the term in the past, as a way to suggest the instrument placement within the 'image' was stable over time. I've come to realize that such instability is about room reflections, so more about the room reflections and even/uneven directivity than some other intrinsic characteristic of the speaker (or the electronics, which I think I believed at one time).
Say you're in a library, supermarket or bar. You can hear and place where different sounds are coming from, often very accurately. That is precision within the soundstage.What does "precise sound stage" even mean? Unless you were in the room and saw where the mix engineer had stuff panned, how would you know if the "soundstage" was "precise"?
They will not. They will reconstruct arrival time and intensity alone for that location of the microphone in space alone. In stereo, all microphone signals are ported into two front-facing channels. In doing so all of the volumetric information is lost. This is spatial distortion. You cannot analyze a stereo signal and reconstruct, from a recording, the distance between sources, for example, and so speakers cannot reproduce it. However, room reflections to some extent augment that lost volumetric information but, at a cost, since the result depends on the room and speaker directivity.intensity and arrival times at the microphones will reconstruct the stage and spatiality
Soundstage is in the recording. Reverb mostly. Poor speakers and rooms can fuck with it.They will not. They will reconstruct arrival time and intensity alone for that location of the microphone in space alone. In stereo, all microphone signals are ported into two front-facing channels. In doing so all of the volumetric information is lost. This is spatial distortion. You cannot analyze a stereo signal and reconstruct, from a recording, the distance between sources, for example, and so speakers cannot reproduce it. However, room reflections to some extent augment that lost volumetric information but, at a cost, since the result depends on the room and speaker directivity.
"Soundstage" is a combination of speakers, room, ears/brain and recording. We need to understand the contribution of each to what we hear.
@tmuikku You might be interested in this from our previous exchange in this thread.
Let's see you try to explain this without reference to speaker directivity, room reflections or known phenomena from auditory processing like the precedence effect.Soundstage is in the recording. Reverb mostly. Poor speakers and rooms can fuck with it.
I get speaker-like soundstage when using iems, as I am now. Done.Let's see you try to explain this without reference to speaker directivity, room reflections or known phenomena from auditory processing like the precedence effect.
The same thing happens with your IEMs on a much smaller scale. Substitute room for canal, and speakers with IEMs,I get speaker-like soundstage when using iems, as I am now. Done.
What point are you trying to make? That the soundstage isn't in the recording? Of course it is, otherwise why would different recordings have different soundstages? Or maybe they don't for you, because your room is dominating the recording.The same thing happens with your IEMs on a much smaller scale. Substitute room for canal, and speakers with IEMs,
What point are you trying to make?
What you are doing by moving like that is changing the ratio of direct to reflected sound. Quite correct.Yes, that's we wanna hear, the recording? Also those who made the recording into existence had loudspeaker system and made it sound good to them, right? so thats what we've got, and thank you from my part, it's plenty nice
Come playback time the speakers and room are yours so it doesn't sound exactly the same, as they are different, but our auditory system is similar. It seems our auditory system has it's part in perception of image, perhaps no surprise, and it ought to be possible for everyone to find out them selves with their own system: Put on mono noise for strong phantom center image. Then, concentrate listening the phantom center, eyes closed. If the phantom center seems big, has kind of a hazy undefined roomy sound to it, then start moving closer to speakers stayding centerline, equidistant to both. Try and hear the phantom center collapse to a small blob and get more definition to it. If you think its well defined at the beginning, move further and try to hear if the phantom center image gets less defined in a way. Move back and forth to learn it if you have it happening.
If it happens you could mark the distance down where you think there is a transition between the two perceptions of image. Mpving over the transition closer to speakers you know you'd get more clarity with direct sound as your auditory system provides it. Moving beyond you'd find the more roomy sound. You might be able to put the main listening position at the transition: lean back for relaxed roomy sound or lean forward if you want to zoom in. Some recordings seem to sound better on either side, some nice on both, and sometimes one might prefer relaxed sound, and sometimes want to dive in. Mobile listening position provides advantage.
Here are my points:What point are you trying to make? That the soundstage isn't in the recording? Of course it is, otherwise why would different recordings have different soundstages? Or maybe they don't for you, because your room is dominating the recording.