Prices... am I out of touch?

[Petrushka]

What is the magic of $10k? It is all relative.

Tons of people listen to $30 dollar Amazon Echo Dot and some of them upgrade to the $100 Echo for better sound. They think a $350 pair of JBL 305P is exorbitant. People with $350 budget speakers may think $1k Ascend Sierra-1 v2 are too expensive. People with $1k bookshelves may see $3k Revel F206 as not worth it. People with $3k floorstanders may think $10k Genelec 8361 are just not worth it. People with $10k full range coaxial studio monitors may feel that $30k Kef Blade One Meta are a waste. People with $30k statement floorstanders may feel that $100k B&W Nautilus are a waste. People with $100k audio snails may believe the money is wasted when purchasing $300k Focal Grand Utopia Be. Even Utopia people think that million dollar basement guy wasted his money.

It is all relative. Everybody has a different stop on the train.

There is a definite place where you cover the entire range, whether you require 50-20k, or 20-20k. I’d say this can be purchased for under a thousand dollars. Less if you go used.

Everything else is in pursuit of the near field orgasmatron. I accept this as a desirable goal, but I think most people are too casual in listening to worry about this.

 

[coonmanx]

So who gets to determine what is affordable or not? Obviously if someone is hawking speakers on the market and they think that their product is a good deal they might use that term. But it doesn't mean that I have to buy into their definition of affordable. Quite the contrary.

Also using the term "affordable" is definitely relative to how much money they have in the bank. Yes, a pair of 2K speakers is more affordable than a pair of 100K speakers. But both may be out of reach for a lot of people.

And then we have the issue of value... I see great value in a 200 dollar pair of speakers that sound really good. Not so much with a thousand dollar or more pair of speakers that sound no better.

But hey, I am not going to tell anyone else how to spend their money. But when I see a review stating that a pair of bookshelf speakers with a 5.25" woofer is a bargain at 2K... That doesn't fly with me. Not going to happen... Sorry but that 5.25" woofer isn't producing any meaningful bass, even if it is made out of (fill in the blank here)... So now you need a sub...

Each to his own...

 

[TurtlePaul]

There is a definite place where you cover the entire range, whether you require 50-20k, or 20-20k. I’d say this can be purchased for under a thousand dollars. Less if you go used.

What can be purchased for under $1k? Look at Amir’s floorstander reviews. You are certainly not getting effortless low distortion bass to the lowest octaves below $1k. Also, that assumes one is looking to buy sound quality. At higher prices that is often one of several parts of the picture. In college I had black vinyl wrapped MDF speakers but now I am willing to spend to have wood veneers which match my furniture. I believe that a lot of Kef Muon, Wilson Maxx, B&W Nautilus and Grand Utopia Be buyers are intentionally buying prestige statement pieces. You are not getting a statement piece below $1k.

 

[CapMan]

You are not getting a statement piece

What does that even mean in terms of sound reproduction ? (Hint = nothing )

 

[TurtlePaul]

What does that even mean in terms of sound reproduction ? (Hint = nothing )

That is the point of my post. If you think six figure speakers are about sound reproduction you will never understand them.

 

[Robin L]

What can be purchased for under $1k? Look at Amir’s floorstander reviews. You are certainly not getting effortless low distortion bass to the lowest octaves below $1k. Also, that assumes one is looking to buy sound quality. At higher prices that is often one of several parts of the picture. In college I had black vinyl wrapped MDF speakers but now I am willing to spend to have wood veneers which match my furniture. I believe that a lot of Kef Muon, Wilson Maxx, B&W Nautilus and Grand Utopia Be buyers are intentionally buying prestige statement pieces. You are not getting a statement piece below $1k.

I suspect my thrift store combo of $30 a pair Infinity Primus 250 speakers (original price $400 a pair, floorstanding, extends to 50 hz on the bottom) and Sonus Son of Sub (bought for $50 used, thrift store, bottom end extension probably around 40 hz) isn't reaching the bottom octaves, though it might be all my small room can support anyway. I remember having Acoustic Research model 3 speakers in a room of similar size and not really hearing the deep bass until I was in the next room. Different horses etc. Can't say I'm really tempted to replace the sub. In any case, that bottom octave doesn't really come into play unless I'm playing organ music, which sounds fine. One can't get a pair of floorstanding speakers that go all the way down to the bottom octave all by themselves for $1k, but it shouldn't take much effort to find a combination of floorstanding speakers and subwoofer that can and for less than $1k.

 

[bachatero]

What can be purchased for under $1k? Look at Amir’s floorstander reviews. You are certainly not getting effortless low distortion bass to the lowest octaves below $1k. Also, that assumes one is looking to buy sound quality. At higher prices that is often one of several parts of the picture. In college I had black vinyl wrapped MDF speakers but now I am willing to spend to have wood veneers which match my furniture. I believe that a lot of Kef Muon, Wilson Maxx, B&W Nautilus and Grand Utopia Be buyers are intentionally buying prestige statement pieces. You are not getting a statement piece below $1k.

2x Kali LP-6v2 + WS 6.2 covers 30-20k at reasonable volumes, and is less than $1k ($900)

 

[Mart68]

So who gets to determine what is affordable or not?

Every individual based on available money and what they're prepared to spend.

Agree that reviewers use the word irrespective of that but you have to be aware that they are always trying to normalise the idea that there's some value in spending vast amounts of money on equipment. That's a world where a five grand power cable can be described as 'Something of a bargain.' Just don't live in it.

 

[CapMan]

That is the point of my post. If you think six figure speakers are about sound reproduction you will never understand them.

Sorry if I misunderstood - peace .

 

[Koeitje]

Agreed, you do have to get into the 1970s solid state power amps to get something competitive with more modern designs, with the same with if not newer for preamps.. Of course with multich and being compatible with modern codec's, all bets are off.

1970s onwards they are usable, but the same money (inflation corrected) buys you a much better amplifier these days.

 

[JeffS7444]

I'm still paying inheritance tax on my hifi
(Wink emoji)

Oh how I wish I had to pay inheritance tax

 

[kelesh]

Find a new hobby.

Or learn electronics, carpentry, acoustics, etc., and start making stuff.

 

[Koeitje]

What can be purchased for under $1k? Look at Amir’s floorstander reviews. You are certainly not getting effortless low distortion bass to the lowest octaves below $1k. Also, that assumes one is looking to buy sound quality. At higher prices that is often one of several parts of the picture. In college I had black vinyl wrapped MDF speakers but now I am willing to spend to have wood veneers which match my furniture. I believe that a lot of Kef Muon, Wilson Maxx, B&W Nautilus and Grand Utopia Be buyers are intentionally buying prestige statement pieces. You are not getting a statement piece below $1k.

What is your point? You for sure weren't getting effortless low distortion below $1000 a couple of decades ago either. Which is the actual topic of this topic. Because designer speakers were also a thing decades ago.

 

[kelesh]

Reviewers call it "affordable" because they need to promote higher priced gear.

The word affordable is also associated with low performance. By labeling something affordable they are setting the expectation that the performance isn't very good.

It's a way to get people to overspend.

Exactly. Not just reviewers, entire industries. Create a "luxury" product which often does the exact same thing as the "normal" one, with maybe a few extra "bells and whistles" and suddenly, your normal, completely adequate product is "low end" and not good enough.

 

[Overseas]

As long as the initiator can be happy with, say 10 bucks headphones, then why is he bothered with the offer of 10k headphones!?

 

[JeffS7444]

In the USA, personal freedoms are considered paramount, even if they result in someone making a series of really bad life decisions which all but guarantee that they'll wind up broke. OTOH, some of our society's winners are willing, even eager, to share their success stories and the thought process which brought them there. But what's remarkable is how, even when that successful thought process is clear, simple and achievable, many folks think "oh, I already know that", and proceed to do things in their own stupid way time and time again. Got crypto? I don't.

 

[TurtlePaul]

What is your point? You for sure weren't getting effortless low distortion below $1000 a couple of decades ago either.

There is no magic price point where you can get the best speakers. There is always going to be something incrementally more expensive that offers some incremental gain. Those incremental gains may not be the measured preference score, but could be output, build quality, styling, prestige.

 

[Koeitje]

There is no magic price point where you can get the best speakers. There is always going to be something incrementally more expensive that offers some incremental gain. Those incremental gains may not be the measured preference score, but could be output, build quality, styling, prestige.

But that isn't the subject of this topic. The statement posed is that current hifi is too expensive. Which it clearly isn't. Never before in history you could buy a certain level of performance for such little money.

 

[GreeneDeux]

But that isn't the subject of this topic. The statement posed is that current hifi is too expensive. Which it clearly isn't. Never before in history you could buy a certain level of performance for such little money.

I think I may have worded it poorly, I went back and added a preamble to try and clear it up. I've never been good with words. Your statement is true but for me "a certain level of performance for such little money" is stuff like the Schiit Magni or Rekkr for example, or the Midgard on a good day, in terms of money in vs. functionality out. One brand of many just for illustration because I'm familiar with their catalogue. Anything much beyond that in the price ladder I tend to see as to much for too little gain, perhaps enjoyable but I'm always surprised to see so many people say it's good value or a bargain or similar.

I think Coonmanx and CapMan "get me" the best on this at least in recent memory of this thread.

 

[kemmler3D]

Edit preamble - yes, I know, there is actually, genuinely cheap entry-level gear, and it is good, very very good even, as low as ~$200 and under per piece. Yes, that is a good price, that makes sense to me. The disconnect for me, explained further below, is when more expensive things get called cheap, because to me $500 for an amp for example or a single speaker or a pair of headphones is already getting excessive for what it is, in my opinion at least, whereas it seems like many in this hobby, especially reviewers, still call that "budget". For me, that doesn't parse, I'd even dare to say it seems deranged, in a "who is this even for? How much of a spendthrift do you have to be for this to be budget?" sense. I think this all comes off more aggressive or accusatory than I'd like but I mean no offense, I just don't know how else to put voice to my thoughts.

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The more I read around about hi-fi the more baffled and bewildered I become on the price tags of equipment... I see $3,000 speakers, $1,000 amplifiers and $500 headphones being hailed as "low price" "great value" "a steal" "budget" "affordable" etc... to me none of those are anywhere even close to being any of those things! Even $200 is already an awful lot for headphones by my reckoning. Just yesterday I saw a review in a magazine magazine calling itself "affordable audio" for a $680 amplifier, which dared to call it "affordable", and gave it their "best of the year" award... no, sir, that is not "affordable", that is half a month's rent! I'd feel like I got punked if I subscribed to that magazine and then got that nonsense in the mail for it!

Just crazy to me not only how high the price tags can reach (way higher than anything I've mentioned so far), but how expensive it goes before audiophiles stop calling it "cheap". There's a massive disconnect for me whenever I see someone (on a forum, in a review, in a video, in a magazine, whatever) talking about something that for me is unthinkably expensive as if it's some kind of great deal, usually touting something along the lines of "you get what you pay for" just to rub it in. I don't get it... and, I'll admit, it's frustrating. I don't see the value in any of it. Am I alone?

Replying to OP's original question, I think you are out of touch, but only in terms of what present-day Hi-Fi is and costs, not in a bad way. There is also a certain amount of learning and then re-learning what it takes to get good performance.

I came from the true consumer world where it was hard to get people to pay $300 for a nice portable speaker.

When I started reading more about hi-fi a couple years back, I was really taken aback by how much a good amp and speakers cost, but what shocked me the most was the cost of a DSP unit that could simply do PEQ. MiniDSP was 5-6x more than what I thought such things should cost, having seen modules for single-digit dollars in the manufacturing world. I still think so, but luckily we have gotten more alternatives over time.

I didn't expect people to still be paying $1K+ for amps in 2022.

I wasn't sure about speakers, but I was surprised to see people not blink at $1K for a speaker.

Over time I got more accustomed to what compromises you need to make at every price point.

But more importantly, I still buy all my gear used. Can you get TOTL sound for under $500? Not easily... but you don't have to spend a lot more than that if you get lucky on Craigslist, either.