Preamp lemon?

[Broken Wing]

Hi all, first post I just received a Ladder Bach preamp direct from Shenzhen which sounds absolutely amazing! It really puts every instrument in it's place and opened up the sound where the textures are far more sperate. Just what I wanted, a bit of "warmth" with max detail.

My setup is miniDSP FLEX Digital I/O - external DAC - Ladder Bach - Crown XLS 1002. I've had the Bach in this setup set at max volume, 60, and control the volume with the miniDSP to retain use of PEQ and SUB control. Now I was just adjusting the preamp volume directly with no music playing and you can distinctly hear a pop/click come THROUGH the speakers, not the normal relay clicks, at only one spot on the dial between 56 and 57. I don't hear any change in the sound of the music when music is playing, but if the music is low enough you still hear the pop. Should I be worried enough to exchange it?

Side questions, in this setup is it best to set the Bach preamp to it's max volume? Or set it back a few notches? I'm not sure if there's any difference in sound or device longevity.

Thanks in advance

 

[SIY]

I've had the Bach in this setup set at max volume, 60, and control the volume with the miniDSP to retain use of PEQ and SUB control.

Then it's not doing anything. Get rid of it.

 

[Mikig]

HI! Maybe I didn't understand, but let me ask you a question? Why if you control the volume with the miniDSP did you get a preamp?

 

[Doodski]

you can distinctly hear a pop/click come THROUGH the speakers, not the normal relay clicks, at only one spot on the dial between 56 and 57.

I have experienced blown/fried matched pair KEF 107.2 tweeters from such a defect in a volume control. Do not use this unit anymore.

 

[Broken Wing]

Then it's not doing anything. Get rid of it.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. The preamp clearly affects the sound in a beneficial way. I mean it's night and day lol. The dac direct into a class d amp was very harsh. And secondly this doesn't answer any of my questions. Thanks though.

 

[Doodski]

@Broken Wing are you using a PC as a source. If so are you using EQ/PEQ? If not then you are missing out on the biggest improvement you can make other than changing out your speakers for more expensive model(s). If you want to try PEQ let me know if you are on Windows or Mac and I will set you up with links for software. The software is free for Windows gear and Mac stuff has a fee for the software.

EQ Software for Windows, Linux, macOS, iOS/iPadOS and Android.

Any suggestions are welcome. Post suggestions here. I will gather the details and add them. Thanks. :D This will be organized as results come in. @sweetchaos made a guide for PEQ filter data input and operation. For crossover software go here. Windows: AutoEQ four easy steps to make your...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Broken Wing]

HI! Maybe I didn't understand, but let me ask you a question? Why if you control the volume with the miniDSP did you get a preamp?

Firstly to warm up the sound without adding tubes. Secondly, I like having the option of removing the miniDSP from the chain if I choose. Say to run my turntable through an analog only chain.

 

[Doodski]

The preamp clearly affects the sound in a beneficial way.

It is coloring the sound and is not giving you the original sound IF you can actually hear a difference between using it and not using it.
The only way to actually know if it sounds different is to do a double blind hearing test. Any other listening method and you are being tricked by bias and your own mind.

If you want to change the sound change the speakers or use PEQ as I mentioned previously.
Do not use preamps to think you change the sound.

 

[JSmith]

Firstly to warm up the sound without adding tubes.

You're likely just adding more distortion and possibly noise, which that Crown amp already has plenty of. IMO it's best to aim for transparent devices and adjust from there to taste.


JSmith

 

[SIY]

The preamp clearly affects the sound in a beneficial way. I mean it's night and day lol.

I used to think the same kinds of things- I mean, the differences between preamps was AMAZING and impossible to miss. Then I tried doing it without peeking and matched levels...

You may want to try the same. And then get rid of something in the chain that's likely doing nothing other than consume power.

 

[Broken Wing]

Regardless of all the opinions over preamps and coloration, which I agree with but look for a happy in-between. Serious question, how does one hook up a phono turntable to an amplifier and have volume control without some sort of preamp? Same thing with a dac that doesn't have it's own volume control? You need a preamp of some sorts.

edit - I guess you could use a PC to control the DAC volume if that's your setup. But that's not always the case.

 

[Doodski]

Regardless of all the opinions over preamps and coloration, which I agree with but look for a happy in-between. Serious question, how does one hook up a phono turntable to an amplifier and have volume control without some sort of preamp? Same thing with a dac that doesn't have it's own volume control? You need a preamp of some sorts.

edit - I guess you could use a PC to control the DAC volume if that's your setup. But that's not always the case.

Parks Audio Puffin Review (Phono Stage)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Parks Audio Puffin Phono Pre-amplifier. This is a special device in that it digitizes the cartridge output and then is able to perform a wealth of signal processing on the signal from pop and tick removal to RIAA equalization. The standard one...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Chrispy]

Regardless of all the opinions over preamps and coloration, which I agree with but look for a happy in-between. Serious question, how does one hook up a phono turntable to an amplifier and have volume control without some sort of preamp? Same thing with a dac that doesn't have it's own volume control? You need a preamp of some sorts.

edit - I guess you could use a PC to control the DAC volume if that's your setup. But that's not always the case.

With an older pre-amp you could just run the miniDSP in a processing loop but that's not offered much now it seems....but don't expect a pre-amp to alter the sound except via tone controls otherwise....

 

[MaxwellsEq]

you can distinctly hear a pop/click come THROUGH the speakers, not the normal relay clicks, at only one spot on the dial between 56 and 57

This can be common in ladder attenuators. Ideally the relay switch would only happen at audio zero crossing points, but to manage that would require a buffer and "look ahead" mechanism. Manufacturers who sell ladder attenuators should warn purchasers of this risk, since it could lead to speaker or hearing damage (in the most extreme case).

Regarding other comments on preamplifiers. The reason to have a preamplifier include: multiple analogue sources (especially if they deliver different levels); tone controls; de-risking DSP-based DAC "volume controls"; built-in phono pre-preamplifiers. Using a preamplifier to "tune the sound" is not a good reason to buy a preamplifier.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi,
It's your system, and your preference.

However, I'd also suggest that you take some of the comments here seriously: you have a redundant component in your system (the Ladder Bach) which does seem to be causing a worrying issue - that noise through your speakers.

Your miniDSP has a good analogue input anyway. You like an added 'warmth' (i.e. some mid-bass boost, and possibly a little treble roll-off) and your miniDSP is specifically designed to let you do that.
Seems to me that you can remove the Ladder Bach, removing the risk of speaker damage and annoying noise and still have the warmth you like.

Some of your other comments are worth a re-think: change in 'texture' is a very subjective description (possibly increased distortion?) but 'separation' is much more commonly affected by room changes like moving or realigning your speakers.

Keep an open mind but, in the end, it's your system

 

[restorer-john]

Now I was just adjusting the preamp volume directly with no music playing and you can distinctly hear a pop/click come THROUGH the speakers, not the normal relay clicks, at only one spot on the dial between 56 and 57. I don't hear any change in the sound of the music when music is playing, but if the music is low enough you still hear the pop. Should I be worried enough to exchange it?

Probably not, but a switched relay volume control is fine on paper, until the zero-cross bursts, general noise and reliability considerations are factored in. There may be DC offset issues causing the 'pop' when the equivalent of the MSB in the ladder network is switched in/out, depending on how they have designed the attenuator network.

Unless the preamp is required for additional inputs, or the Crown amp has a particularly difficult input impedance which needs a "beefy" preamp capability, you can likely dispense with its services completely.

 

[Sokel]

The only reason for a preamp in between the rest of the gear you have I can imagine (apart for the turntable) is a fail-safe if things go south upwards and the MiniDSP expose it's full output.
But the way you use it defeats that purpose.

 

[Broken Wing]

I'd just like to thank you all for rekindling my paranoia over my sound quality! I mean I came here for pretty simple advice over whether or not a piece of equipment might be faulty, not if it is "appropriate" for my system. My previous comments state I want a preamp so I have the ability to run a "pure analog" setup. It's not configured that way atm. I plan on moving the miniDSP to a bookshelf system so I can set crossovers and use a subwoofer. That system's amp does not have those capabilities. Then my main system will be DAC&phono - preamp(remote volume control) - amplifier.

I really, truly am confused over the hatred of preamps. Audiophiles seem to use them in most systems I see. Tube and SS. Yes, adding anything into your chain can be detrimental to your sound quality but it doesn't mean it's a given. Or that it's "bad" for your sound. Some people actually like to "color" their sound. Hence the tube preamps. I don't want to color my sound, only smooth it out and add additional inputs. My current DAC is very cheap, SMSL SU-1, my whole system is lol but I'm upgrading one piece at a time. But going RCA straight into the amp sounded horrible. When I added the preamp it evened out the entire sound stage. Now if that's cause the preamp "colored" the sound, so be it. I feel I have a good ear, former recording musician, and I like the sound lol. Way more than with my first setup, when I was using my old Toping DX7 straight into the amp. That headphone amp/dac has a built in preamp and it paired well with my amp. Only problem was the "Topping sound", it was super detailed and airy but lacked defined bottom end and the sound was overall thin. Night and day with the Bach. I did multiple setup tests, not blind I don't have that ability, but the difference was obvious.

Just as an FYI, I am going to exchange the preamp for a new one. Thanks for the advice on the exchange.

 

[Broken Wing]

Your miniDSP has a good analogue input anyway.

My understanding is that, since I was an idiot and got the Digital I/O FLEX, the analog input has to be routed through a DAC always. Which is fine if I was always using the PEQ/DSP on the FLEX. But when I listen to vinyl, I'd really like the option to listen to it "pure analog". Hence the need for a separate preamp.

edit - And you're probably right about me responding positively to a slight treble roll off with the Bach. I'm pretty sure that was the harshness I heard with the DAC direct into the amp. And my room definitely needs acoustic correction! That's next on my list

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I'd just like to thank you all for rekindling my paranoia over my sound quality! I mean I came here for pretty simple advice over whether or not a piece of equipment might be faulty, not if it is "appropriate" for my system. My previous comments state I want a preamp so I have the ability to run a "pure analog" setup. It's not configured that way atm. I plan on moving the miniDSP to a bookshelf system so I can set crossovers and use a subwoofer. That system's amp does not have those capabilities. Then my main system will be DAC&phono - preamp(remote volume control) - amplifier.

I really, truly am confused over the hatred of preamps. Audiophiles seem to use them in most systems I see. Tube and SS. Yes, adding anything into your chain can be detrimental to your sound quality but it doesn't mean it's a given. Or that it's "bad" for your sound. Some people actually like to "color" their sound. Hence the tube preamps. I don't want to color my sound, only smooth it out and add additional inputs. My current DAC is very cheap, SMSL SU-1, my whole system is lol but I'm upgrading one piece at a time. But going RCA straight into the amp sounded horrible. When I added the preamp it evened out the entire sound stage. Now if that's cause the preamp "colored" the sound, so be it. I feel I have a good ear, former recording musician, and I like the sound lol. Way more than with my first setup, when I was using my old Toping DX7 straight into the amp. That headphone amp/dac has a built in preamp and it paired well with my amp. Only problem was the "Topping sound", it was super detailed and airy but lacked defined bottom end and the sound was overall thin. Night and day with the Bach. I did multiple setup tests, not blind I don't have that ability, but the difference was obvious.

Just as an FYI, I am going to exchange the preamp for a new one. Thanks for the advice on the exchange.

I think you are misreading most of the responses. I would summarise the advice you got as:
1. Ladder attenuators can have splats due to a lack of zero-crossing detection
2. Preamplifiers are fine but are faulty if they audibly/measurably change the sound of your system.
3. Preamplifiers are useful to overcome gain and impedance mismatches (assuming you have these)
4. Got lots of analogue sources? A preamplifier is useful.