Powernode (2021) vs H/K Citation vs Sonos Amp vs NAD D 3045

[LFO]

I did last week. I had a friend's Powernode 2021 for a couple of days together with my Citiation Amp.
I promise - I will write something when I've got a few minutes.
Spoiler alert - there is not clear winner - but ...

Damn, I am really curious now . Could you tell shortly in one sentence which one did you prefer for sound quality CItation AMP or Powernode ?

Unfortunately, tomorrow I am returning my 2nd Citation Amp back for a refund and already considering an alternative.
So far I am thinking between Powernode N330 or NAD C700. I will pair it with Dali Oberon 7.
Unfortunately, latest update about Citation's new batch doesn't sound promising. I've found some information on UK's Citation AMP Q&A page that they are expecting it in January 2023.
I definitely can't wait that long.

 

[Willem]

Apart from failures, I would probably opt for the Sonos. It thas quite a bit of power, the streaming is as widely supported as it gets, and the looks are great, including the option to have it completrely out of sight, which in my book is the ultimate audio esthetic.
At this level there should really not be any sonic differences other than that more power is always better.

 

[LFO]

I believe Sonos has great UX/UI but, somehow, it's giving me vibe of amp designed by great value of IT engineers with a good everyday "life-fi" while others are more reputable closer to hi-fi devices. Also, in many reviews and comments people are stating that Powernode is way better than Sonos, sound wise.
I don't have problem nor doubt with usability aspect, which I believe it's better in case of Sonos and Harman.
Sound is my primary concern and in this case NAD/Bluesound seems better, even with "lower" specs.

 

[Willem]

Why do you think it is sonically impaired?

 

[LFO]

Judging only by reviews, I know, I know ... Apparently Sonos has plenty of power, but sounding too boring and "flat".
It also seems to me that Sonos is more like a lifestyle device than a serious(er) piece of audio equipment.
I never heard it, so I might be wrong. Citation AMP is in similar category, but IMHO it doesn't sound bad (although it has been reviewed as better device than Sonos)

 

[Willem]

Such reviews are nonsense. And what is wrong with boring? I just want my amplifier to be a straight wire with gain, without any excitement added. The Sonos has plenty of power for its price, and in terms of sound quality of properly designed amplifiers, that really is about all that counts.

 

[mmi]

That’s a handy list! Does the NAD actually have a high pass? I was doing similar research and I am fairly certain from memory it’s only low pass. Another plus for the Sonos IMO is loudness setting. Makes a big difference for low level listening in their speakers, it’s subtle and well implemented.

 

[apharma]

I just got the H&K citation amp from eBay for a really good price, it sounds really good and certainly seems to make the bass more noticeable (without boosting the bass) through my diamond 9.1 speakers, I am loving the sound I get from it. I believe this may be down to my old amp either not having a lot of power (though for my listening volume it should) or my old amp is on it's last legs after being pre-owned itself. I can confirm what others are saying, it gets very hot. For me I kept it on a mesh shelf with plenty of air available and after about 2 hours the top was very hot to the touch and the small, loud and very annoying fan kicked in making me need to turn it off as I simply could not enjoy music at a low and normal listening level. I'm on the ASD spectrum so for me this is like nails on a chalk board and I cannot stand it.

I'm in contact with H&K support about this but the news that they may be doing an update has me interested, however I'm also concerned I may have a dud on my hands now. I saw RobHWS and possibly a few others have it in a cabinet, does this solve the fan noise issue or is it still audible in silence?

 

[LFO]

Well, as long as you can still hear the fan kicking in I think you're safe. My first Citation AMP (that started glitching noises after one month) was dead silent, fan was probably not working properly and it caused early overheating. The second unit I could hear fan kicking in occasionally, but that one also caused issue after 6 months of regular normal usage.
At the end I got refund and bought Bluesound POWERNODE which I am liking so far. I loved usability and sound of Citation AMP but unfortunately lacks engineering quality.

 

[dshreter]

I believe Sonos has great UX/UI but, somehow, it's giving me vibe of amp designed by great value of IT engineers with a good everyday "life-fi" while others are more reputable closer to hi-fi devices. Also, in many reviews and comments people are stating that Powernode is way better than Sonos, sound wise.
I don't have problem nor doubt with usability aspect, which I believe it's better in case of Sonos and Harman.
Sound is my primary concern and in this case NAD/Bluesound seems better, even with "lower" specs.

Hifi components are not designed today the way they were in the past. They are integrated from highly engineered packages developed by semiconductor companies. The amplifier in a Sonos Amp is built by Qualcomm…. Do you have the same concern that Qualcomm is making life-fi devices?

Besides, it’s been measured by Amir, so you don’t have to guess what it sounds like. With digital sources it’s a highly accurate amp.

 

[TSB]

Hifi components are not designed today the way they were in the past. They are integrated from highly engineered packages developed by semiconductor companies. The amplifier in a Sonos Amp is built by Qualcomm…. Do you have the same concern that Qualcomm is making life-fi devices?

Besides, it’s been measured by Amir, so you don’t have to guess what it sounds like. With digital sources it’s a highly accurate amp.

Well... Qualcomm might provide the IC, but you still needs to implement it in a board. Plenty of room to make bad products by using bad power supply or other design flaws in board. But like you said, that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

[apharma]

Well, as long as you can still hear the fan kicking in I think you're safe. My first Citation AMP (that started glitching noises after one month) was dead silent, fan was probably not working properly and it caused early overheating. The second unit I could hear fan kicking in occasionally, but that one also caused issue after 6 months of regular normal usage.
At the end I got refund and bought Bluesound POWERNODE which I am liking so far. I loved usability and sound of Citation AMP but unfortunately lacks engineering quality.

Thanks, after I sent a video of how loud the fan was to H&K they said it was louder than expected and I returned the amp for a refund.

I have a feeling it is as you say lacking engineering quality not just in the parts used but also design engineering. I have a very powerful computer that is whisper quiet due to using (almost) silent noctua fans, good airflow and good spreading of thermal load. When I saw a teardown of the citation amp there's almost no consideration above adding a tiny, cheap and loud 40mm standard fan, had they sourced the fan from noctua it likely would have been inaudible and is under warranty for 6 years. I barely had the volume above 10% on the citation which should not have used a lot of power and yet this was heating up a lot, being on the spectrum I can't deal with this noise happening every 10s while watching films or listening to music, it's simply too distracting for anyone sensitive to noise.

It's worth saying it is a great amp and I can see an aftermarket swapping of the fan would not only fix the issue but likely turn this into an exceptionally good amp, likely better than many other offerings and I loved the sound from it. The bass seemed to be boosted a little with the citation compared to my old cambridge audio azur 340A, the app said the equaliser was at 0 for everything but I could swear it was a smidge boosted by default, though could just be anecdotal/looking for a boost.

 

[PeterOo]

I saw RobHWS and possibly a few others have it in a cabinet, does this solve the fan noise issue or is it still audible in silence?

when I close the door of the cabinet I have my Citation Amp in I can just hear the fan from 20cm, but not from my normal listening position.
the door is made up of separate wooden strips and a piece of cloth, so a solid wood door might reduce the noise more.
It is this cabinet.

of course your hearing might be more sensitive than mine. Must say this was on a hot day so the fan was spinning constantly. Not stopping and starting like it sometimes does.

people say the fan does not spin as often when you put the Amp on its side, but I have not tried that myself.

 

[tpict]

I have almost exactly the same requirements as OP. My only additional requirements are an analogue line-in to connect to a phono stage, and ideally a loudness setting.

• Amir's SNR measurements of the Sonos' line-in weren't encouraging, but wouldn't be a limiting factor when playing back vinyl
• The Sonos has a loudness setting. The Bluesound could always receive an update to support it. The Citation seemingly has some EQ settings but information is sparse. Is there any standalone hardware that could be used to add it to the D 3045 without screwing up HDMI ARC?
• The pre-out on the D 3045 is appealing. Looks like the Citation may have it too via line-out?
• I would probably use the phono stage on the D 3045, but the idea of adding a separate doesn't really bother me since they tend to be tiny boxes with no points of interaction
• The Citation feels like the riskier choice with the overheating reports.

Any thoughts that might help me make a decision?

 

[PeterOo]

The Citation Amp does have line out. You can choose in the webinterface if you want fixed level or variable level following the volume settings.
It has treble and base through an archaic web-interface. The remote only allows control of the base.
It has a fan that will probably kick in at some point. Putting it in a cabinet and use the IR extender for remote seems to be the best option.

Firmware still has some bugs. E.g. signal on line in will turn on the Amp but not switch to line in input.

 

[Sam3]

I would avoid the Harman Kardon Citation Amp.

I found it to:
- produce sound that my ears experienced as very shrill and fatiguing, compared to the Pioneer S510 digital receiver that it had replaced (and which I brought back)
- dependent on using an App to access many basic controls and features (data privacy risk + long term support risk)
- ran extremely hot even at idle

My first AV purchase ever was an entry level Harman Kardon stereo receiver that sounded wonderful and lasted many years - two decades. This Citation thing was an imitation of the brand, but something else really, and not worthy of the HK Citation brand. I returned it and did not look back.

 

[PeterOo]

I would avoid the Harman Kardon Citation Amp.

I found it to:
- produce sound that my ears experienced as very shrill and fatiguing, compared to the Pioneer S510 digital receiver that it had replaced (and which I brought back)

That is the first time I heard anyone saying it sounded shrill. Are you sure it is not a problem with your stream? If you use Chromecast make sure to enable Full Dynamic Range in the Google Home app. Google turns that off by default For some reason.

- dependent on using an App to access many basic controls and features (data privacy risk + long term support risk)

You do not need an app to use the Amp. If you want to use Chromecast, Google requires you to use the Google Home app and log in, but that is not something HK can do anything about. It is a limitation of Chromecast.

You do not need a logged in app to use Airplay or bluetooth. You set volume from the app or device you are streaming from. HK chose an approach where you do not need a HK specific app.

You can use Airplay or the webinterface (with a temporary ethernet connection) to setup wifi.

- ran extremely hot even at idle

It does indeed get rather warm when on, but mine is hardly above room temperature when in standby. It will automatically switch to standby if no sound is playing for some time.

 

[Sam3]

That is the first time I heard anyone saying it sounded shrill. Are you sure it is no

That is the first time I heard anyone saying it sounded shrill. Are you sure it is not a problem with your stream? If you use Chromecast make sure to enable Full Dynamic Range in the Google Home app. Google turns that off by default For some reason.

You do not need an app to use the Amp. If you want to use Chromecast, Google requires you to use the Google Home app and log in, but that is not something HK can do anything about. It is a limitation of Chromecast.

You do not need a logged in app to use Airplay or bluetooth. You set volume from the app or device you are streaming from. HK chose an approach where you do not need a HK specific app.

You can use Airplay or the webinterface (with a temporary ethernet connection) to setup wifi.


It does indeed get rather warm when on, but mine is hardly above room temperature when in standby. It will automatically switch to standby if no sound is playing for some time.

There are no problems with my content. The sources going into the amp were: CD player, Apple TV and Airplay. This amp produced this sound as a described in that setup. Was not a content issue.

You do need to use the app in order to access all the sound functions of the amp. This I experienced in use. And I have a long email chain or replies from Harman Kardon customer service when I made this complaint and elevated it. You cannot access all the functionality of the device without that app. Only the most basic ones. You cannot tweak the sound. I know - I used the amp for several weeks and had many emails to HK before finally returning it for a refund.

There are things written on the box that you see in the shop that you cannot do without an app. When I pointed this out to HK. They not only admitted it but told me that is the way it is. But yet they did not respond to my question as to how many years will the app be supported.

Bear in mind there are people still using decades old HK Citation equipment. But this new one Citation amp here requires an app….which it’s doubtful they will support for the conceivable used lifetime off the hardware. Red flag there.

 

[PeterOo]

There are no problems with my content. The sources going into the amp were: CD player, Apple TV and Airplay. This amp produced this sound as a described in that setup. Was not a content issue.

You do need to use the app in order to access all the sound functions of the amp. This I experienced in use. And I have a long email chain or replies from Harman Kardon customer service when I made this complaint and elevated it. You cannot access all the functionality of the device without that app. Only the most basic ones. You cannot tweak the sound. I know - I used the amp for several weeks and had many emails to HK before finally returning it for a refund.

There are things written on the box that you see in the shop that you cannot do without an app. When I pointed this out to HK. They not only admitted it but told me that is the way it is. But yet they did not respond to my question as to how many years will the app be supported.

Bear in mind there are people still using decades old HK Citation equipment. But this new one Citation amp here requires an app….which it’s doubtful they will support for the conceivable used lifetime off the hardware. Red flag there.

Interesting! What app are you referring to? I have the Citation Amp for over a year, but I was not aware that there was a HK app that I could use to change settings.

 

[Sam3]

You have to use the Google app. So to use a very expensive Harman Kardon hardware you have paid for in full, you have to fork over your data to Google.

“…You will first have to set it up through Google Home to be able to use it with any other functions, it runs on the Google Home firmware, without completing this initial setup you cant use it.….”


Then how long will Google and Harman Kardon commit to supporting your access to your settings, Harman Kardon refused to say or commit.