Power amp for Klipschorn

[mhardy6647]

any case, 100 watts is more than you'll ever need, if you want your to keep your inner ears.

Actually, I suspect that at 100 watts input with K-horns, one's outer ears might be in danger as well. Sort of like the face of that German guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark when he takes a peek.

 

[radix]

Just tossing out a random idea. How would a THX AAA balanced headphone amp do? Something like a Monoprice. I know the RME ADI-2 can drive down to 4-ohm or so, not sure about other HPA.

 

[garyrc]

My experience: Currently using LaScala II with a (probably 10-12 watt ch) push pull 6v6GT/6SL7 China integrated unit. Mostly because it looks cool. Chrome chassis, lucite tube guard, lacquered side panels, and all that. Sound is loud enough with the volume knob at about 10 AM. Sometimes 11. FWIW, using power tubes from a Marshall guitar amp, but they sure look like rebranded black glass Shuguangs.

I've also driven them with my home built Dynakit EL-34 mono amps, and home built pre, but that combo sounded a bit 'muddy', if you know what I mean. A lot more power, though. When winter arrives I'll try that combo again, because the added heat will be welcome.

Best 'sound' was with AHB-2/DAC3hgc, playing either digits or records via a Project Phono Box, but I've moved those into a secondary system (which I tend to use more, because it's in my den), driving a set of JBL L100 I've had for, I guess, 45 years or so.

Sources used with LaScala are a Garrard Z-100 I rebuilt, along with a new AT 740ML cartridge (2.25g tracking). Also have a sub connected when I play digits. With records I don't notice the lows so much. La Scala rolls off pretty fast around 50Hz, I'd guess. Also a Bellari 'kind of tube' phono preamp (first stage is, I believe, an opamp). It's noisier than most might like, but I don't notice it from my listening position, and really don't care anyway. Features a low filter you can switch on or off reducing some record player noise, so it's got that going for it. And has some kind of headphone amp I never use.

Klipschorns are a bit more sensitive than LaScala, and go a bit lower, I think. Today the price of either model is through the roof, but have you gone to the grocery store lately? It's just the way things are. Even higher end signature Chinese sourced Epiphone electric guitars are pushing $1,500.00, these days. Unbelievable! Shecter Guitar Research is the best overall deal, probably--Korea or Indonesia. Ground hamburger from I have no way of knowing where is still affordable. Top Cow filets are pretty much out of the question. But I digress.

In any case, 100 watts is more than you'll ever need, if you want your to keep your inner ears. 10 will likely be adequate for most average sized living rooms.

I think the original (but "final" design for the next 40 ++ years) La Scala had sensitivity identical to the Klipschorn, if measured 400 Hz to 3,000 Hz, which was 101 dB, 2.83v, 1M, and a bit higher in the "typical" listening room.

I'd agree, La Scalas and Belle Klipsches roll off at about 50 Hz. But, boy are they clean (with good amplifiers and program material)! Here is a graph of the La Scala vs. the Altec A7 (the smallest "Voice of the Theater," but much bigger than the La Scala), with the bass of the Klipschorn traced in in red.

Trusting my eyeballs (notice that the 1K 0 point is at ~~ about +3dB):
A7 @ -3dB is ~~ 60 Hz
La Scala @ -3dB is ~~ 49 Hz
Klipschorn @ -3 dB~~ 44 Hz

In our listening room, Klipschorns hit -3 dB a bit lower, at about 35 Hz, and we crossover to the subwoofer at 40 Hz, an octave lower than typical. It sounds gorgeous! As dynamic as can be! Reproduces brass and percussion (including piano) just about flawlessly. Strings, not so much. The cello and bass viol are fine, though, and viola is good. My guess is that distantly miked violins are the ones that seem good, Decca (UK), Mercury, et al.

 

[Sal1950]

I've also driven them with my home built Dynakit EL-34 mono amps, and home built pre, but that combo sounded a bit 'muddy', if you know what I mean.

I had the same sonic impression using my Dyna ST70, it also had a good bit of hum. Though is was a factory original 1960s model and could very well have used some new caps, etc.

Best 'sound' was with AHB-2/DAC3hgc, playing either digits or records via a Project Phono Box

Now that I imagine would be a match made in heaven.

 

[anmpr1]

Actually, I suspect that at 100 watts input with K-horns, one's outer ears might be in danger as well. Sort of like the face of that German guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark when he takes a peek.

Yeah--it's not so much the watts you have, but the watts you use. Really, as far as watts go, Klipsch heritage horn speakers will probably drive you out of the room before you use many of them-- because of the sensitivity/SPL they can achieve.

JBL applications engineer, the late Drew Daniels, advised that low distortion speakers will generally not 'sound as loud' as higher distortion loudspeakers, because it's the distortion that makes you want to turn the volume down. Distortion is unpleasant, and unnatural. Thus, with a loudspeaker that produces lower distortion you might actually listen at higher SPL, and this could lead to hearing damage.

I'm not sure I totally agree across the board with him, but that it might rather depend upon the kind of music one is listening to. For example, if the distortion is in the original (such as rock music), one might not be as willing to turn the sound down, as say with a distorted string quartet. The former might sound 'realistic' distorted, but not the latter.

 

[fpitas]

JBL applications engineer, the late Drew Daniels, advised that low distortion speakers will generally not 'sound as loud' as higher distortion loudspeakers, because it's the distortion that makes you want to turn the volume down.

Yes, I've experienced that. A friend and I realized we couldn't hear each other talk. We had no idea it was that loud.

 

[anmpr1]

I think the original (but "final" design for the next 40 ++ years) La Scala had sensitivity identical to the Klipschorn, if measured 400 Hz to 3,000 Hz, which was 101 dB, 2.83v, 1M, and a bit higher in the "typical" listening room.

HiFi News (2019) measured LaScala AL 5 (latest version) sensitivity at 101.6 watt/meter. Richard Heyser (Audio 1986) reported K-horn sensitivity at 'well over' 98dB. Klipsch lists 103dB, but that's marketing. In any case, unless you are using another horn loudspeaker, sensitivity is more than you'll usually get anywhere else.

I have not heard AL5, but I imagine that the overall 'sonic presentation' is similar to what came before. Fit and finish appears to be better. At least from pictures. Which you'd expect at these new prices.

I am not happy with the overall finish of my LaScala II. It has a nice (but paper thin) walnut veneer, however corners of the top unit don't fit square with the bottom woofer commode. If you remove the grill, it's ugly and unfinished black wood (I guess it is wood). Plastic grill surround looks rather cheap. Really, at these prices, and with the thing being mostly hand made by woodworkers, you are paying for 'fine furniture', which you don't actually get upon close inspection. Of course all that has nothing to do with the loudspeaker's sound.

To contrast another (in)famous loudspeaker, the walnut on my L100 was thick enough for me to sand down (twice since I've owned them) and refinish. I could probably sand it again if needed. Furniture oil actually soaks into the grain. Oil on the thin veneer Klipsch uses just sort of sits on the surface. But if you don't look closely, you won't notice these aesthetic limitations. However, in fairness, very few manufacturers offer 'furniture grade' finishes anymore. Few want to pay for that.

In the early days, you could buy Klipsch product with a utility finish, and forego aesthetics, or finish them yourself, as you saw fit. But those days are long gone. Back then, you could buy other loudspeakers in the raw. I think AR sold that way.

 

[fpitas]

Look for a good quality Class D or "Class T" (Tripath chipset) stereo power amplifier. Does not have to be rated for high output power.
Get a good preamp to drive it and you'll be ready to rock & roll (or ready to jazz, or classical, or what have you).

Yes, a friend and I configured his Hypex UcD180s for very low gain, so they would "only" output about 30W to his horns.

 

[Sal1950]

In the early days, you could buy Klipsch product with a utility finish, and forego aesthetics, or finish them yourself, as you saw fit.

I bought my La Scala's new in 1979, raw marine grade plywood for $500 each.
I remember my X saying "oh those are fugly", to which I replied, "Yea,So What?"
Those were the days. LOL

 

[anmpr1]

I bought my La Scala's new in 1979, raw marine grade plywood for $500 each.
I remember my X saying "oh those are fugly", to which I replied, "Yea,So What?"
Those were the days. LOL

I don't know why they stopped making them in a one piece form factor. Maybe it's easier to ship in two pieces. I personally liked the one piece design. I would have bought a utility finish if they had offered it. Would be easy to stain as desired, and would look fine, IMO.

To give folks an idea of inflation--you bought for five hundred dollars apiece. That's 2K according the Inflato calculator. Expensive, but not over the top.

I bought mine in 2018 for four thousand dollars each.

Today they are $6500.00 each.

Tomorrow they will be...

 

[Sal1950]

Tomorrow they will be...

Ah well,
Ya think speakers are bad, look at cars.

 

[Cadguy]

1989 Klipschorn $3300/pair
2023 Klipschorn $16498/pair

1989 BMW 750iL $67540
2023 BMW 740i $96400
2023 BMW 760i xDrive $121300

 

[anmpr1]

1989 Klipschorn $3300/pair
2023 Klipschorn $16498/pair

1989 BMW 750iL $67540
2023 BMW 740i $96400
2023 BMW 760i xDrive $121300

It's sort of a kludge to compare old v new based strictly on inflation, although I do it all the time. Some things remain more or less dollar equivalent adjusted for inflation, and others are more expensive outright. Some items are not really equivalent in any meaningful way, so comparisons don't make complete sense (consider the personal computer, which is actually dollar-cheaper today compared with legacy machines, along with having vastly improved performance).

My guess (and it is only a guess since I don't have either an old LaScala or new L100 to compare) is that both old and new (probably more so with the LaScala) are going to sound pretty similar. At least to the point that one can say, "Yeah, that's the way I remember it." I would however suspect the new L100 to sound more different from its predecessor.

On the other hand, it is almost impossible to argue that a 30 or 40 year old car is going to drive anything like a newer one. Especially performance oriented models; and all new models, considering 'features' that were unavailable on older models (whether those 'features' are a benefit is of course another question, altogether).

I think any difference is going to be least noticeable with amplifiers. If we exclude tubes, I doubt that many would be able to distinguish a comparable SS amplifier built in the late '70s with a current model--at least if they are being honest with themselves (brands hidden, levels matched)--and as long as they are both within spec.

 

[Cadguy]

I just posted this for fun and not as a meaningful comparison. Certainly there are a myriad of variables here; the general rate of inflation, the differing rates of inflation for the raw materials, exchange rates, production efficiencies, wages, economy of scale, market demands etc. In 1989 I lusted for both these products. Today I wouldn't want either of them.

 

[egellings]

Hi, I’m looking for a good cheap power amp for an old pair of restored Klipschorn. All consueil are good for me. This is my first post here, thank you, Giuseppe

I somehow recall reading that Paul said that what the world needs is a good 10-watt amplifier, or similar. Brooks, an amplifier maker, came out with a push-pull parallel 2A3 amplifier, and that worked wonders for the speakers.

 

[CHenry]

Hi, I’m looking for a good cheap power amp for an old pair of restored Klipschorn. All consueil are good for me. This is my first post here, thank you, Giuseppe

With >105dB sensitivity, you probably could run them on line-out from a preamp (jk.)

The KHorn is one of those speakers that is perennially proposed to run on 2A3 SET amps that put out less than 5W. A quality class-A solid state integrated should do as well, and also needn't have a lot of power. Accuphase E-650, Musical Fidelity A1, Schiit Aegir and any number of single-ended tube amps that are on the used market might be fine.

 

[garyrc]

I doubt that many would be able to distinguish a comparable SS amplifier built in the late '70s with a current model--at least if they are being honest with themselves (brands hidden, levels matched)--and as long as they are both within spec.

I agree. Once they stopped using a huge amount of feedback and conquered TIM, they were home free. I'm not sure exactly when that happened, perhaps it was in the early '80s, when I got my beautiful Luxman L580 -- the best sounding and most versatile (!) amp I've had.

 

[pieterv1]

The Rotel should be fine. The main concern with high-sensitivity/high-efficiency speakers is that they make everything "louder", including any background noise.

I don't know how the Rotel compares to other amps but some slight hiss (or hum) in the background is unlikely to detract from the fun, and probably won't be heard in a bar where the listeners are likely farther away from the speakers than in a living room, and there is more acoustic background noise.

Awesome! I was also curious how my amp would cope with is and I'm actually very keen to try it out in a different setting, with those speakers.

At home it's driving a pair of Wharfedale Linton Heritage and the volume dial almost never goes beyond 10 o'clock

I've never seen the speakers in person so looking forward. Will report afterwards!

 

[pieterv1]

So we had our listening session yesterday. Those things were biggg. We had to carry them up the stairs which were very tight as well

But they sounded great with the Rotel stack!

The owner had 2 pairs of these things, currently running them from a thrift store Yamaha amp. That's when I knew the Rotel would probably work just fine hehe

 

[mhardy6647]

So we had our listening session yesterday. Those things were biggg. We had to carry them up the stairs which were very tight as well

But they sounded great with the Rotel stack!

The owner had 2 pairs of these things, currently running them from a thrift store Yamaha amp. That's when I knew the Rotel would probably work just fine hehe

I cannot tell from the photos -- but are those K-horns tight in the corners?
I believe that they're supposed to be, "for best results".

They're Utility K-horns, at that! EDIT: Klipsch called such "unfinished" variants "Decorator" models (come to think of it).
Judging by the logo, early 1970s(?) models.