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Power amp for Klipschorn
- Thread starter audiophile.1963
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mhardy6647
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well... kind of. sort of.
The venerable Lowther twincone drivers are extremely sensitive (ca. 102 dB/watt @ 1 m) direct radiators -- but (and this is a major caveat) they need fairly esoteric loading to produce a "reasonable" amount of bass. So, yes, generally a back-loaded horn. Nelson Pass's ironically-named Kleinhorns are a rather extreme example.
THAT said, there are certain people who use Lowthers in bass reflex enclosures. The chief proponent of this approach is one David Dicks -- I will defer comment other than to say that it's not a broadly-popular approach.
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Even at best, though, Lowthers are an acquired taste; polarizing, shall we say.
They can sound pretty good -- they can even sound terrifyingly real (e.g., with really, really, really well recorded and well reproduced male voice), but they can also be ear-piercingly, unbearably shrill. They're, ahem, not at their best with over-produced, poorly-mastered "pop" music, e.g.
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In 1951 Paul discussed this:
"However, for the benefit of those... who still insist on knowing the author's personal preference for an amplifier to use with the Klipschorn, here is the answer: the Brook. Not that this is a better amplifier than the others mentioned by name, but for the following reasons: 1) it is a good, low- distortion wide-range amplifier, 2) it has a rather definite upper power limit which prevents damage to the delicate high-frequency speaker driver used in current Klipschorn systems, 3) it has a very highly refined preamplifier with proper equalization provisions, and 4) it is amenable to a very slight revision for full bass extension applicable to Klipschorn (referred to as K1 re-equalization). The specific designation of this amplifier is the Brook 12A3-K-1 and is rated at 10 watts output. Significant is the fact that it has been found to deliver 9.5 watts of clean output at 30 cycles. This is more than adequate power for driving high efficiency, horn-type corner speakers. Probably, for home use, peak amplifier output of 1 watt would suffice to feed a Klipschorn."
Of course Paul was writing in the days of mono, so for stereo you should really be thinking of at least two solid watts.
"However, for the benefit of those... who still insist on knowing the author's personal preference for an amplifier to use with the Klipschorn, here is the answer: the Brook. Not that this is a better amplifier than the others mentioned by name, but for the following reasons: 1) it is a good, low- distortion wide-range amplifier, 2) it has a rather definite upper power limit which prevents damage to the delicate high-frequency speaker driver used in current Klipschorn systems, 3) it has a very highly refined preamplifier with proper equalization provisions, and 4) it is amenable to a very slight revision for full bass extension applicable to Klipschorn (referred to as K1 re-equalization). The specific designation of this amplifier is the Brook 12A3-K-1 and is rated at 10 watts output. Significant is the fact that it has been found to deliver 9.5 watts of clean output at 30 cycles. This is more than adequate power for driving high efficiency, horn-type corner speakers. Probably, for home use, peak amplifier output of 1 watt would suffice to feed a Klipschorn."
Of course Paul was writing in the days of mono, so for stereo you should really be thinking of at least two solid watts.
mhardy6647
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I would be careful shopping for old push-pull DHT amps. I had a local guy bring me some ancient push-pull 2A3 amps a few years ago and we discovered that the output transformer had a single 16 ohm secondary, so we had to put new OTs in!
Luckily the new OTs accepted the covers off the old ones, so it wasn't all that easy to tell how much these had been monkied with. I would bet they would be excellent on a pair of K-Horns!
Luckily the new OTs accepted the covers off the old ones, so it wasn't all that easy to tell how much these had been monkied with. I would bet they would be excellent on a pair of K-Horns!
mhardy6647
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16 ohm secondaries are just fine for/with some of us... I am just sayin'...
That is a gorgeous amplifier, @paulbottlehead
That is a gorgeous amplifier, @paulbottlehead
OP
audiophile.1963
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And why not a pro amp? For example I read that in Italy someone uses yamaha p-2500s with Klipsch speakers and they sound very well. What do you think about?
Giuseppe
Giuseppe
tvrgeek
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A good old Crown DC 300 and a pair if LaScalass . Yea, great PA system.
What is "Pro amp" I think you mean a PA amp. Most of them are very high power. Why put a 1000 W amp on a speaker that was designed for 5 or 10? PA amps are not designed for low distortion. Not a good match.
Why put an old tube amp with likely over 5% HD on a speaker who's entire design is to reduce distortion?
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If you have a turntable hooked up to a system with super sensitive speakers and a high power (high gain) amplifier, putting the needle down on a record without muting the preamp may send your woofer cones flying across the room. At least with a K-horn, that destruction would be self-contained.
OP
audiophile.1963
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I had this suspicion. But now I make you a direct request: which brand and model of amplifier should I buy by spending a maximum of 2/300 euros used? 2/3/4 models to choose are enough for me, a friend leaves me a pre Mark Levinson n38. Naturally you must think models that I could find in Europe. Thanks Giuseppe
In our 4257 cu. ft. room, at 13 feet, a pair of Klipschorns:
1) With 1 w.p.c. produces about 98 dB.
2) With 8 w.p.c. produces about 107 dB [2 dB above THX's requirement for instantaneous peaks for sound above 80 Hz in a huge room, much bigger than ours (a subwoofer would need to produce 115 dB)].
3)With 64 w.p.c. produces about 116 dB, which is about the peak level of a large orchestra from a few rows back (C, fast).
I use NAD power amps rated at 150 w.p.c. continuous.
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Ahhhhhhh...I remember a lovely sunny afternoon driving around there going roughly from Venezia to Firenze.
Klipschorn are quite sensitive, you need a low noise floor amp. I can only say I have an Aiyima A07 in one system and I like it, though @Amir measures it as not super high S/N.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/aiyima-a07-tpa3255-review-amplifier.18984/
My suggestion is you can click on the chart to expand it and see what models of amps have a high SINAD and you can have available within your budget.
+1
I owned La Scala's for 30+ years and what the big horns appreciate most is clean, low noise, distortion free amps.
You won't find a better match for a set of KHorns.
Topping PA5 Review (Amplifier)
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping PA5 stereo desktop amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $349. PA5 enclosure looks like their standard DACs and such: Hard to imagine that an amplifier can fit in the same size but here we are. There are large...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Hey guys! Just chiming in because a friend of mine is organising up a listening session for an album release in a bar in a few weeks. He'll be able to use someone's Klipschorns, however it is not yet clear weather he'll be able to use the guy's amplifier as well.
However I own a Rotel RC-06 / RB-06 combo that I've recently given a complete overhaul. Is there any reason why not to use this combo with the speakers?
However I own a Rotel RC-06 / RB-06 combo that I've recently given a complete overhaul. Is there any reason why not to use this combo with the speakers?
DVDdoug
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The Rotel should be fine. The main concern with high-sensitivity/high-efficiency speakers is that they make everything "louder", including any background noise.
I don't know how the Rotel compares to other amps but some slight hiss (or hum) in the background is unlikely to detract from the fun, and probably won't be heard in a bar where the listeners are likely farther away from the speakers than in a living room, and there is more acoustic background noise.
I don't know how the Rotel compares to other amps but some slight hiss (or hum) in the background is unlikely to detract from the fun, and probably won't be heard in a bar where the listeners are likely farther away from the speakers than in a living room, and there is more acoustic background noise.
For full dynamic range -- reaching 115 dB for the briefest instantaneous peaks (1/4 second) in a 3,000 cubic foot room -- a Klipschorn needs about 60 watts. For a lesser SPL, 30 watts would be fine. Sure, the average power needed is much lower, but if you want to avoid clipping on extraordinary peaks, I'd have 60 watts or more available.
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His RB-06 has 70wpc at 0.03% distortion. He'll be fine.
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My experience: Currently using LaScala II with a (probably 10-12 watt ch) push pull 6v6GT/6SL7 China integrated unit. Mostly because it looks cool. Chrome chassis, lucite tube guard, lacquered side panels, and all that. Sound is loud enough with the volume knob at about 10 AM. Sometimes 11. FWIW, using power tubes from a Marshall guitar amp, but they sure look like rebranded black glass Shuguangs.
I've also driven them with my home built Dynakit EL-34 mono amps, and home built pre, but that combo sounded a bit 'muddy', if you know what I mean. A lot more power, though. When winter arrives I'll try that combo again, because the added heat will be welcome.
Best 'sound' was with AHB-2/DAC3hgc, playing either digits or records via a Project Phono Box, but I've moved those into a secondary system (which I tend to use more, because it's in my den), driving a set of JBL L100 I've had for, I guess, 45 years or so.
Sources used with LaScala are a Garrard Z-100 I rebuilt, along with a new AT 740ML cartridge (2.25g tracking). Also have a sub connected when I play digits. With records I don't notice the lows so much. La Scala rolls off pretty fast around 50Hz, I'd guess. Also a Bellari 'kind of tube' phono preamp (first stage is, I believe, an opamp). It's noisier than most might like, but I don't notice it from my listening position, and really don't care anyway. Features a low filter you can switch on or off reducing some record player noise, so it's got that going for it. And has some kind of headphone amp I never use.
Klipschorns are a bit more sensitive than LaScala, and go a bit lower, I think. Today the price of either model is through the roof, but have you gone to the grocery store lately? It's just the way things are. Even higher end signature Chinese sourced Epiphone electric guitars are pushing $1,500.00, these days. Unbelievable! Shecter Guitar Research is the best overall deal, probably--Korea or Indonesia. Ground hamburger from I have no way of knowing where is still affordable. Top Cow filets are pretty much out of the question. But I digress.
In any case, 100 watts is more than you'll ever need, if you want your to keep your inner ears. 10 will likely be adequate for most average sized living rooms.
I've also driven them with my home built Dynakit EL-34 mono amps, and home built pre, but that combo sounded a bit 'muddy', if you know what I mean. A lot more power, though. When winter arrives I'll try that combo again, because the added heat will be welcome.
Best 'sound' was with AHB-2/DAC3hgc, playing either digits or records via a Project Phono Box, but I've moved those into a secondary system (which I tend to use more, because it's in my den), driving a set of JBL L100 I've had for, I guess, 45 years or so.
Sources used with LaScala are a Garrard Z-100 I rebuilt, along with a new AT 740ML cartridge (2.25g tracking). Also have a sub connected when I play digits. With records I don't notice the lows so much. La Scala rolls off pretty fast around 50Hz, I'd guess. Also a Bellari 'kind of tube' phono preamp (first stage is, I believe, an opamp). It's noisier than most might like, but I don't notice it from my listening position, and really don't care anyway. Features a low filter you can switch on or off reducing some record player noise, so it's got that going for it. And has some kind of headphone amp I never use.
Klipschorns are a bit more sensitive than LaScala, and go a bit lower, I think. Today the price of either model is through the roof, but have you gone to the grocery store lately? It's just the way things are. Even higher end signature Chinese sourced Epiphone electric guitars are pushing $1,500.00, these days. Unbelievable! Shecter Guitar Research is the best overall deal, probably--Korea or Indonesia. Ground hamburger from I have no way of knowing where is still affordable. Top Cow filets are pretty much out of the question. But I digress.
In any case, 100 watts is more than you'll ever need, if you want your to keep your inner ears. 10 will likely be adequate for most average sized living rooms.
