Please help me choose a Dac

[Marc v E]

@Freddy : welcome to the forum! Please don't feel offended by people being somewhat confrontational. We have a lot of knowledgable people here and lots of experience. You may understand where they are coming from if you know that many have spent thousands on gear to reach nirvana and found out price is not a good indication for performance after reaching a certain threshold.

Regarding your streamer/dac I would recommend the okto and xlr interconnects. The mola mola if you feel like spending more for the absolute best....although nobody can hear it. That's what we basically all found out.

 

[threni]

"you don't need to spent loads of money to get a DAC which works "perfectly"
I never said that. I have however a few weeks ago, listened to a couple of Chinese Dacs on the graph posted in post 2 and really did not like what I heard. The ones I asked about in my initial post were recommended to me by a friend who has listened to all of them.

I have a "Chinese DAC" - the Topping E30. Like all the Topping DACs reviewed here it works - successfully converting digital to analog. There's nothing to not-like - that's what a DAC is supposed to sound like. Perhaps you're used to audio equipment imposing an opinion on the music you listen to in which case ensure you set your EQ accordingly but don't try to fix that in your choice of DAC.

 

[flz]

Perhaps not everything has been laid out on the table here. If I owned a US$20K amp and a US$20K pair of speakers (or something in that range) as the OP does, my conscious or subconscious mind would work very hard to suggest that a DAC <$1K should not be even considered. And if doing a sighted comparison test & without the proper controls (level matching, etc), I will believe such DACs sound inferior. Otherwise, the cognitive dissonance may be too much to bear.

 

[Freddy]

I heard the Topping D50, (I think), and the Mytek Manhattan and found them both difficult to listen to for extended periods. This was not when I was considering what to get.

 

[voodooless]

I heard the Topping D50, (I think), and the Mytek Manhattan and found them both difficult to listen to for extended periods. This was not when I was considering what to get.

What do you think would those thousands of additional dollars actually bring to the table to improve upon something like the D50?

 

[TheBatsEar]

I too humbly submit the Topping E30 for a mere 150€. I can vouch for it's quality in build and signal, as i have one myself. It has no sound signature at all and that is exactly what one wants in a DAC.

If I owned a US$20K amp and a US$20K pair of speakers (or something in that range) as the OP does,

Let me stop you right there. YOU would sell the amp, buy a Class D NCore or something like it and put the remaining US$19.5k into your bank account. You wouldn't keep it around and suddenly develop cognitive dissonances when you touch cheap gear. If we are honest, you meant that you expect @Freddy to have those cognitive dissonances. Maybe you are right. But it's not guaranteed.

Maybe he has the mental agility to step out of it and see that DACs and amps are good and cheap these days. It's room sound, speakers and digital manipulation of the signal that is the current frontier for most.

Anyway, @Freddy , welcome to this strange place in the internet

 

[voodooless]

So you already bought the optional DAC module for the Diabolo, which is already a $4800 part? What's wrong with it?

 

[Freddy]

"What do you think would those thousands of additional dollars actually bring to the table to improve upon something like the D50?"
Something I would like to listen to for more than 40 minutes without suffering listener fatigue perhaps? I found both of the ones I mentioned quite shrill in the middle range, especially when listening to voices.
No I have not purchased the dac module for the Gryphon. I explicitly stated that I wanted separates.
Thank you, @TheBatsEar, at least some people are civil here. I will see if I can listen to some of the better Toppings than the D50 and hope they sound better.
It is obvious that no one hear has listened to the Dacs I asked about in my op.

 

[threni]

So you already bought the optional DAC module for the Diabolo, which is already a $4800 part? What's wrong with it?

It seems that system uses the Sabre ES9018 DAC which by all accounts is somewhat old and expensive. Perhaps the trademade ESS hump was a thing even way back then?

 

[voodooless]

It seems that system uses the Sabre ES9018 DAC which by all accounts is somewhat old and expensive. Perhaps the trademade ESS hump was a think even way back then?

Wanna wager on an ABX?

 

[threni]

"What do you think would those thousands of additional dollars actually bring to the table to improve upon something like the D50?"
Something I would like to listen to for more than 40 minutes without suffering listener fatigue perhaps? I found both of the ones I mentioned quite shrill in the middle range, especially when listening to voices.
No I have not purchased the dac module for the Gryphon. I explicitly stated that I wanted separates.
Thank you, @TheBatsEar, at least some people are civil here. I will see if I can listen to some of the better Toppings than the D50 and hope they sound better.
It is obvious that no one hear has listened to the Dacs I asked about in my op.

If you are listening to the D50/E30 and it's shrill/causing listener fatigue then the problem is obviously elsewhere in your system, room or your head because there is nothing wrong with the DACs, as has been pointed out several times now. You'll need to use REW to address the acoustics in your room, or apply some EQ, or check the rest of your kit is properly installing/functioning.

 

[voodooless]

Playback designs MPD-8
EMM Labs DAC2X-V2

The fact that none of these manufacturers show any kind of performance spec, let alone a measurement should already be a massive red flag.

 

[Freddy]

Not my room, and certainly not my head. Why do his records not sound shrill?

 

[voodooless]

Something I would like to listen to for more than 40 minutes without suffering listener fatigue perhaps?

How will a more expensive DAC solve that?

No I have not purchased the dac module for the Gryphon. I explicitly stated that I wanted separates.

Well, it is a separate box But good to not waste money on that I guess.

certainly not my head.

How can you be so certain of that? You are Human, right?

So what is your reference at the moment? As I understand it, you don't have a DAC?

 

[JSmith]

Freddy has made these comments in the welcome thread;

Hi, in the process of relocating back after a long stint overseas. I am mainly interested in classical music and have a large collection of records, and a lot of opera. I asked for advice on purchasing a Dac and so far have found most of the replies, (not all), to be rude and dismissive. It is almost as if one is not allowed to purchase equipment that sounds good to one. I doubt this is the site for me.

JSmith

 

[TheBatsEar]

Thank you, @TheBatsEar, at least some people are civil here. I will see if I can listen to some of the better Toppings than the D50 and hope they sound better.

Everyone is reasonable with you, i think. They don't attack your person, just your believes about gear. And they have the better arguments too.

I agree that the D50 "sound" you describe, is not there. It seems to be measuring fine, none of its artifacts should be within detectable range, that means it's as perfect at it needs to be. The D50 goes farther, it is better than "as perfect as it needs to be".

Not my room, and certainly not my head. Why do his records not sound shrill?

You feel like this right now, i know, because i was you a few years ago:

But i have proof that your brain can not be trusted:

If you measure it, the rings don't move. It's only in your brain. The same tricks can be done with hearing, pain receptors or taste. The truth is unknown to humans, we can only estimate it using measurements.

The sound you attribute to the D50 is rooted elsewhere, because it has no sound. Most likely cause is some kind of mental bias, which is a hard pill to swallow. We all had to overcome it, in my case it was 20 years of buying pricey cables, and hearing differences while doing so, that got me thinking eventually.

Today i don't trust anything i hear, because that depends on mood, glucose levels, caffeine intake, weather and how my plants look at me. Neither should you.

 

[threni]

Freddy has made these comments in the welcome thread;



JSmith

Perhaps this site needs a "friendly", short, canonical "everything you know about choosing audio equipment is wrong but you can fix that" page. Testimonies, "I saved this much" quotes, maybe a YouTube video. I don't read this conversation as hostile but if anything I said came across that way then I'm sorry and it wasn't my intention.

 

[voodooless]

Freddy has made these comments in the welcome thread;

So vinyl is the reference. Well, I guess that sounds different from a digital recording for a variety of reasons, see: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ords-sound-so-much-better-than-digital.22074/

My guess is that no single DAC will satisfy unless horribly broken. EQ will help.. get the Flex

 

[flz]

Any of you guys think a R2R DAC is an option for the OP? Denafrips? Or how about SMSL D300 with the new ROHM chip? This whole discussion reminds me of the reviewers on Youtube who are all subjectivists and rave about the 'sound' or 'color' or 'soundstage' of certain DACs. Lush, organic, natural, euphonic, liquidity, etc....And the DACs in question tend to have mediocre measurements at best (if they have been measured).

 

[TheBatsEar]

Perhaps this site needs a "friendly", short, canonical "everything you know about choosing audio equipment is wrong but you can fix that" page. Testimonies, "I saved this much" quotes, maybe a YouTube video. I don't read this conversation as hostile but if anything I said came across that way then I'm sorry and it wasn't my intention.

I don't think this would help.

All of that will just harden the feeling of being attacked. Which is what we do, except that we attack with hard, factual arguments against subjectivism, we have trained on 1000 or so subjectivists, and are so crushingly efficient at wiping every argument away, that it feels like an attack on the person instead.

I know, i was in that situation. Had to think about it hard for a few hours.