Please help me choose a Dac

[TheBatsEar]

Any of you guys think a R2R DAC is an option for the OP? Denafrips? Or how about SMSL D300 with the new ROHM chip?

Maybe. The Denafrips certainly looks nice and uses interesting engineering. But those DACs don't have audible differences in sound. Why buy them over a D50?
The fundamental problem is that OP can hear differences in DACs, but objectively, there aren't any. Changing DACs solves nothing.

This whole discussion reminds me of the reviewers on Youtube who are all subjectivists and rave about the 'sound' or 'color' or 'soundstage' of certain DACs. Lush, organic, natural, euphonic, liquidity, etc....And the DACs in question tend to have mediocre measurements at best (if they have been measured).

That is why i don't discuss there. The same with Reddit. Reddit may be even worse, because there they have the upvote button, deepening the bubble of subjective BS.

 

[voodooless]

The fundamental problem is that OP can hear differences in DACs, but objectively, there aren't any. Changing DACs solves nothing.

He didn't really say he could (but I'm pretty sure he would argue he can though ). He just said that the ones he heard were not satisfactory. With vinyl as a reference, that is not very surprising IMHO.

 

[Leiker535]

This is a heavily "objectivist" forum, @Freddy (if you go by labels), meaning that most of us here don't believe in differences in source gear, when they already measure to the consensual threshold of hearing limit. Coming here from years (or thousands) spent on the audiophile hobby can be daunting at first. I know it was for me. What I urge you to do is to dismiss the confrontational comments and try to see what they're telling you: that DACs matter very little.

Being a very hard pill to swallow, and since you are already used to high priced gear, I would stray you towards two options: the Denafrips Ares II or the Holo May. Both are very well measuring DACs that are still raved by the more "subjectivist" part of the hobby as sounding "natural", as per the videos I linked to you, on which you'll find all the verbose descriptions that are so predominant in the hobby. Both are also R2R, which in the aforementioned lore brings digital closer to vinyl.

But I urge you, again, to ABX the ones already mentioned by others here, and do it so blindly, so as to not bring biases. It can be difficult, yes, but it will demonstrate how little already fine DACs matter. Things like the D90SE will already offer you all the features and connections you want, and SOTA and utopic sound quality.

 

[threni]

Maybe. The Denafrips certainly looks nice and uses interesting engineering. But those DACs don't have audible differences in sound. Why buy them over a D50?
The fundamental problem is that OP can hear differences in DACs, but objectively, there aren't any. Changing DACs solves nothing.


That is why i don't discuss there. The same with Reddit. Reddit may be even worse, because there they have the upvote button, deepening the bubble of subjective BS.

Yeah, Reddit's great for the occasional chuckle - some of the posters there are literally dripping with Kool-aid.

I'm still amused by OP's comment about "The much cheaper Sonnet Pasithea, which gets great reviews". And so it should - it costs 5900 Euro! According to the manufacturer it has "Distortion 0.001% THD" which puts it firmly - at least by that metric - up there with Apple's $9 dongle.

 

[TheBatsEar]

I'm still amused by OP's comment about "The much cheaper Sonnet Pasithea, which gets great reviews". And so it should - it costs 5900 Euro! According to one retailer it has "Distortion 0.001% THD" which puts it firmly - at least by that metric - up there with Apple's $9 dongle.

"But our stuff is more musical." - Marketing Manager at Sonnet

 

[NiagaraPete]

Another thread where members are arguing amongst themselves and the OP is nowhere to be found.

 

[threni]

Another thread where members are arguing amongst themselves and the OP is nowhere to be found.

OP last posted maybe two hours ago. I see no such arguing. Did you post in the right thread?

 

[voodooless]

Now we're arguing

 

[threni]

Now we're arguing

No, it isn't. It's just contradiction!

 

[voodooless]

No, it isn't. It's just contradiction!

That's what you think

 

[kairos]

Weird that most of the DACS with great SINAD numbers are consistently listened to and rejected by most folks outside of the ASR orbit for poor sound quality even though they cost less. The rationale if you can call it that is that there is a conspiracy amongst well-heeled audiophiles to not like cheap Chinese DACS out of embarrassed spite, a misplaced sense of nationalism, or they just have outright poor hearing. But even the YouTubers who do measurements then listening tests like GoldenSound prefer more expensive DACS like the Chord DAVE and HoloAudio May. Guys like the old timers at Stereophile like John Atkinson who do measurements like for the Okto and celebrate it as a cost effective DAC prefer the far more expensive DACS like MSB even though the measurements are not as impressive as the Topping D90 and others of that ilk. I personally would prefer to spend $-2K on a DAC and save my money, but the difference between my Gustard X26 Pro at $1.5K and my Denafrips Terminator II at $5K cannot be unheard now that I have heard it for 6 months swapping these DACS in and out of my $50K system. That's not to say the Gustard isn't good, it's just not as tonally rich, and the soundstage and imaging is poor comparatively. I can't help but think "objectivists" here just sell themselves a story that measurements tell the WHOLE story so they can feel better about not having the means to afford a 1st class system.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Weird that most of the DACS with great SINAD numbers are consistently listened to and rejected by most folks outside of the ASR orbit for poor sound quality even though they cost less. The rationale if you can it that is that there is a conspiracy amongst well-heeled audiophiles to not like cheap Chinese DACS out of embarrassed spite, a misplaced sense of nationalism, or they just have outright poor hearing. But even the YouTubers who do measurements then listening tests like GoldenSound prefer more expensive DACS like the Chord DAVE and HoloAudio May. Guys like the old timers at Stereophile like John Atkinson who do measurements like for the Okto and celebrate it as a cost effective DAC prefer the far more expensive DACS like MSB even though the measurements are not as impressive as the Topping D90 and others of that ilk. I personally would prefer to spend $-2K on a DAC and save my money, but the difference between my Gustard X26 Pro at $1.5K and my Denafrips Terminator II at $5K cannot be unheard now that I have heard it for 6 months swapping these DACS in and out of my $50K system. That's not to say the Gustard isn't good, it's just not as tonally rich, and the soundstage and imaging is poor comparatively. I can't help but think "objectivists" here just sell themselves a story that measurements tell the WHOLE story so they can feel better about not having the means to afford a 1st class system.

This guy thinks he is clever. Here we go again!

 

[kairos]

This guy thinks he is clever. Here we go again!

Not clever, there several typos in my post lol, I am just poking fun at you guys here. But as an aside, many guys who make DACS for a living have said multiple times that measurements measure what they know how to measure. Why is it so hard to believe that just maybe measurements don't capture everything about sound reproduction yet?

 

[BDWoody]

Why is it so hard to believe that just maybe measurements don't capture everything about sound reproduction yet?

Because of the lack of evidence.

Stories and evidence are different things.

 

[Steve Dallas]

Not clever, there several typos in my post lol, I am just poking fun at you guys here. But as an aside, many guys who make DACS for a living have said multiple times that measurements measure what they know how to measure. Why is it so hard to believe that just maybe measurements don't capture everything about sound reproduction yet?

You believe you are clever, because you appealed to price, which must be trump card, but it is often the first "argument" we hear. The next one will probably be appeal to authority.

The thing is, you have no idea what means we have nor what we have access to hear for our listening pleasure. Many of us are very well-compensated and have been for most of our careers.

I suggest you arrange to participate in a properly-conducted blind or double blind test and see what you think about DACs afterward. I know you think it is not necessary considering the "experience" you posted, but I expect you will be rather surprised at how your "golden" ears are actually made of lead. I doubt you will be able to tell the difference between a $100 DAC and a $25,000 DAC.

 

[TheBatsEar]

the difference between my Gustard X26 Pro at $1.5K and my Denafrips Terminator II at $5K cannot be unheard now that I have heard it for 6 months swapping these DACS in and out of my $50K system.

It's so tiresome. When will it stop?

 

[NiagaraPete]

Weird that most of the DACS with great SINAD numbers are consistently listened to and rejected by most folks outside of the ASR orbit for poor sound quality even though they cost less. The rationale if you can call it that is that there is a conspiracy amongst well-heeled audiophiles to not like cheap Chinese DACS out of embarrassed spite, a misplaced sense of nationalism, or they just have outright poor hearing. But even the YouTubers who do measurements then listening tests like GoldenSound prefer more expensive DACS like the Chord DAVE and HoloAudio May. Guys like the old timers at Stereophile like John Atkinson who do measurements like for the Okto and celebrate it as a cost effective DAC prefer the far more expensive DACS like MSB even though the measurements are not as impressive as the Topping D90 and others of that ilk. I personally would prefer to spend $-2K on a DAC and save my money, but the difference between my Gustard X26 Pro at $1.5K and my Denafrips Terminator II at $5K cannot be unheard now that I have heard it for 6 months swapping these DACS in and out of my $50K system. That's not to say the Gustard isn't good, it's just not as tonally rich, and the soundstage and imaging is poor comparatively. I can't help but think "objectivists" here just sell themselves a story that measurements tell the WHOLE story so they can feel better about not having the means to afford a 1st class system.

Heifer dust.

 

[MaxBuck]

If people want to spend many thousands of dollars on expensive DACs, I'm not here to stop them. But I'm not about to join them.

I can't tell a difference between my Node's mediocre internal DAC and the Topping D30Pro I replaced it with. (Nor could I discern a difference when using the Schiit Modi.) But somehow I'm comforted by the presence of the Topping in my chain.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Heifer dust.

The stuff is general purpose, isn't it? Good on chicken AND on pork.

 

[TheBatsEar]

If people want to spend many thousands of dollars on expensive DACs, I'm not here to stop them. But I'm not about to join them.

I can't tell a difference between my Node's mediocre internal DAC and the Topping D30Pro I replaced it with. (Nor could I discern a difference when using the Schiit Modi.) But somehow I'm comforted by the presence of the Topping in my chain.

Same here. Feels good to have a well behaved device, wheter i can hear it or not.