I agree with you. There are these points of tonality:Why does revealing = not neutral? There is a huge difference between how a speaker, especially the tweeter, resolves a sound/frequency while being neutral and bright / top end boosted speakers. A boost from 5khz doesnt mean it will be more revealing than a good neutral speaker. If you think a boosted top end will be more revealing, think lower end B&Ws. Those 600 series are boosted till kingdom come but they do not reveal intricate details of a track like some other less bright/neutral speaker does. Revealing does not equate to boosted treble.
It depends what frequencies are boosted, but yeah that is usually what "revealing" means. Conversely, "neutral" literally means non-exaggerated, but also note what Jim Taylor said. The room can cause issues that obscure details.Why does revealing = not neutral? There is a huge difference between how a speaker, especially the tweeter, resolves a sound/frequency while being neutral and bright / top end boosted speakers. A boost from 5khz doesnt mean it will be more revealing than a good neutral speaker. If you think a boosted top end will be more revealing, think lower end B&Ws. Those 600 series are boosted till kingdom come but they do not reveal intricate details of a track like some other less bright/neutral speakers do. Revealing does not equate to boosted treble and vice versa.
Great point. Just look at how Genelec designs speakers if you want an idea of what you need in the near field.For over 50 years, I have used nearfield positioning, narrow dispersion patterns and room treatment to extract information that I found desirable from recordings. These three implementations have made more difference than the choices between generally-similar loudspeakers. Jim
If you insist that revealing means certain boosted top end frequencies, I cant change your mind. Thats not what I meant or what Im after. Im after revealing yet neutral, something that is usually hardware dependant.It depends what frequencies are boosted, but yeah that is usually what "revealing" means. Conversely, "neutral" literally means non-exaggerated, but also note what Jim Taylor said. The room can cause issues that obscure details.
Humour me for a sec here but lets take this scenario : A Genelac that measures 100% flat from 20hz - 20khz, I mean 100% flat vs an ABC speaker that measures 100% flat from 20hz - 5khz then start gradually and linearly rising to 20khz. The Genelac will still be more detailed, revealing and transparent, which ever way you may call it.@MarkWinston. At some point, it very likely does come down to a boosted frequency response, where within the listening window or in directivity. I think the way you're defining 'revealing' might be the way people refer to 'transparency' or a speaker that is 'detailed' in some way, assuming that it's independent of frequency response. But in most cases, it's not. So I think you're potentially underestimating the power of some small changes in frequency response and directivity.
There is an infinite amount of ways speakers can sound roughly 'neutral' while still having some frequencies boosted over others. A speaker being neutral just means it's in the ballpark of flattish frequency response and smooth directivity. But within those constraints speakers can still sound very different.
In any case these are very subjective terms. You could argue a flattish speaker is not very revealing compared to other neutral speakers, but if you're coming from something that's all bass and no treble, it'll sound like a revelation.
Likewise, some speakers have peaks in some frequencies and dips in others. Instruments and sounds that excite those peaks will be 'revealed' more compared to speakers that don't have peaks in those regions, while areas with dips will be obscured. Moreover, having a dip right before a peak can fit her accentuate that peak too.
We can talk about what being revealing means in broad terms, but it's more useful to talk in terms of direct comparisons from speaker to speaker. If you have a certain speaker that is roughly neutral but would like it to sound more detailed, it only takes a very small change in FR or a different directivity pattern to make that happen. Almost by definition, a speaker sounding more 'detailed' just means it's giving you some small acoustic insight that the other speaker did not provide.
Again, small changes can make noticeable differences. Just a 1dB boost in frequency response spread over a wide range of frequencies will be very audible. This is especially true as peaks are more audible than dips.
From Toole's book chapter 4, minimum audibility threshold for resonances:
View attachment 152955
Look at that third graph in particular. A 0.5dB, broad boost in frequencies like the one at 5kHz would take a careful eye to spot in a frequency response graph, yet it is just as audible as the 4dB narrow peak at 200Hz.
Somewhat counterintuitively, it is the subtle, broad changes that are more audible than the much more visible smaller peaks and dips. But all should be taken into account, which is why high quality measurements are important.
Why does revealing = not neutral? There is a huge difference between how a speaker, especially the tweeter, resolves a sound/frequency while being neutral and bright / top end boosted speakers. A boost from 5khz doesnt mean it will be more revealing than a good neutral speaker. If you think a boosted top end will be more revealing, think lower end B&Ws. Those 600 series are boosted till kingdom come but they do not reveal intricate details of a track like some other less bright/neutral speakers do. Revealing does not equate to boosted treble and vice versa.
What about the scenario I gave above? Will that be impossible?What you're describing is a change in balance. Since we hear tonal balance and since an overabundance of some sounds can mask our perception of others, what you describe will sound much more detailed from 5 kHz and up and depending on content, could mask mid range detail.
In an opposite scenario, a speaker that gradually rolls off starting at 5 kHz will sound much less detailed from that point on up and will sound like it has an overabundance of midrange detail because that is what your brain will focus its processing on.
So when you say "detailed" – it depends.
Humour me for a sec here but lets take this scenario : A Genelac that measures 100% flat from 20hz - 20khz, I mean 100% flat vs an ABC speaker that measures 100% flat from 20hz - 5khz then start gradually and linearly rising to 20khz. The Genelac will still be more detailed, revealing and transparent, which ever way you may call it.
Are you saying that this scenario is impossible given the same listening conditions?
Would a certain tweeter type be more detailed than another type of tweeter even if they measure exactly the same?I think it's likely just a difference in what interpret "revealing" or "detailed" to mean. I tend to agree that neutral is likely to be the most revealing on average, but I'm not at all sure of that.
In your scenario, I would say the Genelec is more revealing of sounds below 5kHz, while the ABC is more revealing of sounds above 5kHz.
Outside of dispersion pattern which affects reflections, frequency response, distortion, and power handling, I do not believe there is anything else about tweeter type or material that I need to consider.Would a certain tweeter type be more detailed than another type of tweeter even if they measure exactly the same?
Thats the point Im trying to get at, a neutral measuring speaker may be more revealing than a treble boosted one. It doesnt necessarily mean a bright measured speaker would be more revealing than a neutral one. Blanket statements like these are just not true, there are other factors at play besides the fr. I would like to know what other factors affect transparency and detail, hence my initial question because Ive come across many bright speakers that are not as revealing.Given the FR is the same, they still could sound drastically different if the HD of the tweeters is different. This is where the lower HD drivers can shine and be more revealing without the added HD some add to the sound.
So when you say "detailed" – it depends.