Paradigm Persona,

[ahofer]

Its cool if you guys live with stock patch and power chords. Everybody spends their money different ways. I have been in this hobby for 40 years and know that EVERYTHING matters. From the vibrations from a power supply that my Stillpoints may clean up to a death grip receptacle, all the small differences add up. The room is the largest qualifier and I have a pretty much golden ratio room. Together with the Personas being a very transparent speaker my system may be able to convey subtle cues that less resolving systems gloss over. I have never heard 2 power chords sound the same in my system. If you guys are around Lake St.Clair area in Mich come on by. We can have a beer and you can prove to me I am nuts

Appreciate your good humor about it.

 

[Russellbobby]

Man, looks like you could throw a rock into Canada from where you live! I spent some time up in Indian River last summer, and wow, what a beautiful area!

I've been interested in the Persona 3F for a while. Did you ever compare the 5F to the 3F? I've always wondered if the 5F was worth the additional money since Paradigm only specs the 5F about 3 Hz deeper in bass frequency response. You have to go to the 7F to get a big difference in bass specs. Yes, I know one can add a sub; I'm just a sucker for big floor standers as close to full range as I can get them.

Hey Marc, the 5fs sound just bigger I can turn off my swarm system and still generate plenty of bass in my room At the listening position. The swarm increases soundstage and smooths the bass out thru the room. Your Balanced Krell amp would be killer with the 5f’s Heard them at Axpona in 2018 with a pair of McIntosh 1k monos. They filled a 20x40 room. We where sitting 15 ft away and getting over 100 db. The Personas never flinched. They claim 93 db effiency but I think 89 or so in real life. I had the 5fs with an Audio Research VSi 75 integrated tube amp. Sounded good but just not enough oomph for me.
just off the phone with my dealer friend. He has demo’s of 3,5,7f and he wants to deal. His demo stuff gets very little wear and tear as he is a custom installer. Also carries Anthem. PM me if that interests you.

 

[Frank Dernie]

no disrespect. I can see I am in the wrong place. Wish I could agree with your thoughts it would save me a lot of cash
Good luck to the gang.

I was surprised to find when I retired actually had time to do a proper controlled, level matched DAC comparison that all the differences I was sure I heard disappeared.
Edit, I did the same with interconnects and speaker cable earlier and found they were all the same too, so went from 2 sets of £7000 speaker cables to 1 set that cost £31 on ebay and sounded indistinguishable.
Microphones, record players and speakers definitely sound different to me, and speaker position has a big influence, but DAC, preamp and any cable - all the same.
A power amp needs to be powerful enough for the speakers and have a low enough output impedance not to effect the speaker response, but for me the electronics is all about styling, features and reliability reputation.
It was too late to save me much money, I already had spent 6 figures on the system, but haven't been fooled since.

 

[Sal1950]

no disrespect. I can see I am in the wrong place. Wish I could agree with your thoughts it would save me a lot of cash
Good luck to the gang.

Its cool if you guys live with stock patch and power chords. Everybody spends their money different ways. I have been in this hobby for 40 years and know that EVERYTHING matters. From the vibrations from a power supply that my Stillpoints may clean up to a death grip receptacle, all the small differences add up. The room is the largest qualifier and I have a pretty much golden ratio room. Together with the Personas being a very transparent speaker my system may be able to convey subtle cues that less resolving systems gloss over. I have never heard 2 power chords sound the same in my system. If you guys are around Lake St.Clair area in Mich come on by. We can have a beer and you can prove to me I am nuts

Naw, don't go away, just hang out a while, read, and let some of the knowledge here sink in. It will start to make your question some of your ideas on what really matters and what doesn't. You might even decide like Frank to start and test some of these notions you have for yourself. You have absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain, like more money in your pocket to spend on the things that really do matter. Your room and your speakers are the two most important things in HiFi.. I don't have much technical knowledge but have been into music and it's reproduction since I was a pre-teen, that's close to 60 years as I'm 70 now and have picked up a few things along the way.
It's your choice whether to expand your understanding of audio, or stay locked in the bubble your in now.
Take the risk, burst the bubble.

 

[steve59]

Hey Russellb I bought a pair of 7f's after a year of listening to them at a local Dealer. I heard them with the str integrated and didn't like it, the str separates were better but still not reaching me, they were impressive maybe too impressive to be realistic then I heard them with a pathos logos mk2 and they nailed it. The music loosened up a little the hyper detail was still there but now I was enjoying the music. My hegel doesn't have the same rich mids the pathos did, but I still play one song after another after another. I've had speakers that were impartial to cables even amps of a certain category would sound alike, but the persona line will let us hear everything we change in our system.

 

[steve59]

I have the same kimber 4tc a friend got me at ces in Chicago in the late 80's so I don't know squat about wires, but most hi end speakers will tell you all amps don't sound the same and anybody wants to come over for a dbt I'll make coffee.

 

[Russellbobby]

Nice amp Steve. I like tubes somewhere in the chain The Personas will let you know about everything in your system.

 

[Sal1950]

but most hi end speakers will tell you all amps don't sound the same and anybody wants to come over for a dbt I'll make coffee.

There are no absolutes, anyone who says ALL amps sound alike is a fool, but I don't believe I ever heard anyone say something so dumb.
There are all sort of things going on from poorly designed "high end" speaker crossovers, to tube amps with easily measurable variations in FR into some loads that will make audible differences. But there is no magic dust or unknown factors at work. Amplifier design for transparent amplification has been a solved problem for a number of decades now, the big advances coming in efficiency and incredibly low distortion numbers, which fell below audible levels long ago.
By far the largest reason for differing amp sound is sighted, bias inducing listening conditions and the power of the human brain to hear what it expects to hear. Put on blinders and the vast majority of modern, expertly designed amplifier sound goes up in smoke.

 

[ahofer]

There are no absolutes, anyone who says ALL amps sound alike is a fool, but I don't believe I ever heard anyone say something so dumb.
There are all sort of things going on from poorly designed "high end" speaker crossovers, to tube amps with easily measurable variations in FR into some loads that will make audible differences. But there is no magic dust or unknown factors at work. Amplifier design for transparent amplification has been a solved problem for a number of decades now, the big advances coming in efficiency and incredibly low distortion numbers, which fell below audible levels long ago.
By far the largest reason for differing amp sound is sighted, bias inducing listening conditions and the power of the human brain to hear what it expects to hear. Put on blinders and the vast majority of modern, expertly designed amplifier sound goes up in smoke.

Indeed. The jarring thing isn't that people may prefer different presentations, or that they are affected by the expectations and visual appearance of their gear, but that so much of the most expensive audiophile electronics and wire does *nothing* that cannot be reproduced, in an audibly distinguishable way, with cheap DSP (or indeed, does nothing audibly distinguishable at all). The liberal use of "revealing", "transparent" and "resolving" above is, I'd wager, simply the treble emphasis/innacuracy of the Performa speakers above 5Khz (see below). I had the same experience auditioning them- "wow, I can hear the bow noise..(a few minutes pass)..actually, this is irritating"

https://www.stereophile.com/content/paradigm-persona-5f-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[Russellbobby]

Indeed. The jarring thing isn't that people may prefer different presentations, or that they are affected by the expectations and visual appearance of their gear, but that so much of the most expensive audiophile electronics and wire does *nothing* that cannot be reproduced, in an audibly distinguishable way, with cheap DSP (or indeed, does nothing audibly indistinguishable at all). The liberal use of "revealing", "transparent" and "resolving" above is, I'd wager, simply the treble emphasis/innacuracy of the Performa speakers above 5Khz (see below). I had the same experience auditioning them- "wow, I can hear the bow noise..(a few minutes pass)..actually, this is irritating"

https://www.stereophile.com/content/paradigm-persona-5f-loudspeaker-measurements

That’s is no secret. The Personas are not plug and play. That is why you adjust thru electronics and cabling or in your guys world DSP. No such thing as a perfect speaker. The Personas can be tamed thru toe-in also. Sabre Dac and Personas not do good, AKM Dac which are a little warmer work real well All about system matching. You certainly don’t put all your stocks in one sector, you balance your portfolio. Audio works the same way. While being more predictable it’s all trial and error. That’s why most dealers give you 30 days to try the component in your system. Measurements are only a predictor of performance, not an absolute.

 

[HooStat]

That is why you adjust thru electronics and cabling or in your guys world DSP.

Or you get more neutral speakers and neutral electronics and not worry about any of it. Seems way easier and less expensive.

 

[q3cpma]

No such thing as a perfect speaker.

While there's no perfect speaker, there's flawless. And this fallacious truism certainly isn't a valid justification for audiophile bullshit.

 

[Russellbobby]

You guys got it made. Buy a few things you like and live with it for the rest of time. That's awesome and I am jealous. Unfortunately technology evolves and improves and I enjoy continually upgrading. Probably a sickness. I buy a lot of my gear used so not to big a hit when I resell. I am sure you guys have more hobbies that you are passionate about and maybe music is just background.
I have stock golf clubs. Maybe you have custom -fitted clubs. The 8 irons both go 150 of the hitting robot but you hit yours a little farther as you have adjusted the lie and they are an inch longer. But you are a little more passionate about the game so you go a little farther with it. Same thing.

 

[Alexanderc]

You guys got it made. Buy a few things you like and live with it for the rest of time. That's awesome and I am jealous. Unfortunately technology evolves and improves and I enjoy continually upgrading. Probably a sickness. I buy a lot of my gear used so not to big a hit when I resell. I am sure you guys have more hobbies that you are passionate about and maybe music is just background.
I have stock golf clubs. Maybe you have custom -fitted clubs. The 8 irons both go 150 of the hitting robot but you hit yours a little farther as you have adjusted the lie and they are an inch longer. But you are a little more passionate about the game so you go a little farther with it. Same thing.

I've been really impressed by your demeanor here. As you might imagine, we sometimes get people who come here and get offended (and offensive); we are quite different than most audio communities. You have been very reasonable and I appreciate it very much (though I do subscribe to the science).

 

[steve59]

What you said russelbobby. I used to get stereo review in the 80's if there was a cool speaker on the cover and JH was pretty strict about measurements = sound, Audio also, passionate about the measurements, not so passionate about the sound. I still spend more time on this site since I found it. Who knows, maybe to save a few newcomers.

 

[Pdxwayne]

That’s is no secret. The Personas are not plug and play. That is why you adjust thru electronics and cabling or in your guys world DSP. No such thing as a perfect speaker. The Personas can be tamed thru toe-in also. Sabre Dac and Personas not do good, AKM Dac which are a little warmer work real well All about system matching. You certainly don’t put all your stocks in one sector, you balance your portfolio. Audio works the same way. While being more predictable it’s all trial and error. That’s why most dealers give you 30 days to try the component in your system. Measurements are only a predictor of performance, not an absolute.

Well, I have the Persona B. I just did lots of comparisons and measurements with Gustard x16 (latest Sabre) and E30 (akm). Gustard is the one the feels warmer to me.....

 

[Russellbobby]

Yea that's a pretty blanket statement by me . My Sabre dac experience is with the Lumin T2. Both the Aurender A10 ( AKM 4490) and the Cary 600 ( AKM 4497) were a better fit. I have not heard the latest Sabre 9068. I think they may have taken a little edge off. Earlier Sabre dacs seemed to get fatiguing over time, at least in my systems.

 

[joefig44]

I have a Paradigm Studio 60 setup and was thinking of Persona 3F + C.

Anyone compared the CC690 center with the Persona C? I'm presuming it's a big step up for HT sound?

 

[Russellbobby]

Try phantom with the 3fs. You will have a rock solid center image and save plenty of cash. Fully immersive Peeps are always looking for my center with my 5 fs. Try it without first.

 

[joefig44]

Try phantom with the 3fs. You will have a rock solid center image and save plenty of cash. Fully immersive Peeps are always looking for my center with my 5 fs. Try it without first.

I'm not sure phantom is an option for me due to my 138" scope screen.
My speakers must be min. 11' apart (I'm 11.5' away) and I need to ensure all the center imaging is maintained for that large screen for HT use.