New to the audiophile world and hoping for some suggestions!

[brett174]

Hi all,

As per the subject heading, I've been trying to get into the audiophile world but struggling with some of the basics and was hoping to get some help.

I recently purchased a pair of KEF R3 Metas and paired it with the NAD M10v2. Probably getting close to around 50 hours use now and whilst they sound good, they dont wow me like I was hoping they would (maybe my expectations were too high, but I also fear room characteristics are probably a large limiting factor too). Room is approx 4.3 x 4.5m, with a small diagonal wall which opens back into the kitchen/dining area. Behind the main listening area is a window of similar size as to the other window shown in the photo, as you can see also the right speaker is also pretty close to my aquarium!

I've just spent the morning running DIRAC with a UMIK-1 microphone (whilst also trying to get my head around frequency responses, target curves etc etc) but I'm still not really sure what to make of the results. I'd appreciate if anyone can give me advice as to any improvements I may be able to make either to the room or to the DIRAC settings.

 

[radix]

It looks like the mids and highs are rolling off pretty fast. You are only doing correction out to 500 Hz? You could try doing full range correction and see what that's like. I know some people only like to do up to 500 - 1k, but something seems to be killing the highs in your case. It looks like you have a 10 dB difference from 1k down to 10k. and maybe 13 dB down from 100 to 10k.

The R3 have some binding post connector switches on the back. You might want to make sure those are secure so the HF and LF posts are bound together.

And just to make sure, you are loading the calibration file, the 0* version with the mic pointed towards the speakers. I've not used DIRAC on the NAD, so don't know if the interface. Or if it expects the mic to be horizontal or vertical.

The NAD documentation asks for the mic to be in the VERTICAL position [https://support.nadelectronics.com/...erform-Dirac-Live-Calibration-on-NAD-products], so that would use the 90* calibration file.

Tip: Mount the Microphone on a tripod stand for better measurements. The microphone should always point up (facing the ceiling) with no source of reflection.

I'd try running DIRAC with all the default settings first, which will use a modest Harman curve over the full range. Or just follow that document I referenced at first and see how it does. Once you have it basically working, you can then try different experiments to see what you like.

 

[Keith_W]

I agree with @radix. It is -15dB compared to bass at 20kHz. It should be about -5dB to -8dB depending on your preference. Rolling off high frequencies like that will suck the sparkle out of music, and make everything sound dull, plodding, and lifeless. I would suggest something like this:

 

[brett174]

It looks like the mids and highs are rolling off pretty fast. You are only doing correction out to 500 Hz? You could try doing full range correction and see what that's like. I know some people only like to do up to 500 - 1k, but something seems to be killing the highs in your case. It looks like you have a 10 dB difference from 1k down to 10k. and maybe 13 dB down from 100 to 10k.

The R3 have some binding post connector switches on the back. You might want to make sure those are secure so the HF and LF posts are bound together.

And just to make sure, you are loading the calibration file, the 0* version with the mic pointed towards the speakers. I've not used DIRAC on the NAD, so don't know if the interface. Or if it expects the mic to be horizontal or vertical.

The NAD documentation asks for the mic to be in the VERTICAL position [https://support.nadelectronics.com/...erform-Dirac-Live-Calibration-on-NAD-products], so that would use the 90* calibration file.



I'd try running DIRAC with all the default settings first, which will use a modest Harman curve over the full range. Or just follow that document I referenced at first and see how it does. Once you have it basically working, you can then try different experiments to see what you like.

Thanks for your reply. To answer your questions:

I am using the basic included license which only calibrates up to 500hz. I did watch a review from Erin's Audio Corner who thought the full license wasn't normally needed as that is the range where most of the correction should be.
I used the 0 degree calibration file from umik-1 minidsp site pointed to speakers (my understanding was that the 90 degree file should be used for home theatre application and thats when you point the mic to the ceiling).

 

[voodooless]

I’d say the biggest issue is the gain mismatch at 500 Hz. It should have a smooth transition, but that is clearly not the case here.

 

[radix]

Thanks for your reply. To answer your questions:

I am using the basic included license which only calibrates up to 500hz. I did watch a review from Erin's Audio Corner who thought the full license wasn't normally needed as that is the range where most of the correction should be.
I used the 0 degree calibration file from umik-1 minidsp site pointed to speakers (my understanding was that the 90 degree file should be used for home theatre application and thats when you point the mic to the ceiling).

As long as the calibration file matches the orientation, you're OK. I've not used dirac on nad, so my knowledge of that specific combo is limited.

The vertical position will capture reflections off the rear wall. That looks to be right behind your main listening position. It could be you have cancellations that cause further muddy sound. Maybe try it with vertical. Or move the mic forward say 6" and see if that changes it. Small movements will make a big difference to 1 kHz - 20 kHz.

So I'm not sure how to smooth out that curve. If DIRAC is not changing the mid and high, then there might be some other EQ setting on the preamp? Or maybe toe-in or toe-out the speakers some.

Is this a 1-position measurement, or did you use a 3 or 5 or 7 point?

If you have REQ, you can do measurements there too. That will let you see the reverberations in the room (reflections). If you have a lot of reverb around vocal range or presence range, that can make the it sound dull or muddy too.

 

[Keith_W]

By the way, microphone stands can reflect short wavelengths to the mic and contaminate the measurement. The way you have set up your mic stand will create a lot of reflections. I suggest you set your mic up like this:

Most people would have their mic behind the sofa with the boom extending forwards to the listening position, but I realize that you have a wall there.

Nice fish tank, BTW. What fish do you keep?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

As per the subject heading, I've been trying to get into the audiophile world but struggling with some of the basics and was hoping to get some help

Since you are new to all of this, I would start with the basics. Turn off all sound processing and run the system completely flat. Live with this for a week or so listening only to music you like (not necessarily "HiFi" tracks) and not to tones or pink/white noise and don't measure anything.

So, what do you hear? Is the image roughly central and doesn't move with note changes (a cello solo can sometimes help)? Do bass players seem to only know one note? Has the drummer forgotten his cymbals?

After a few days, move the speakers a few centimetres back, forward, to the side etc. Change the angle they face towards you - e.g. pointing straight down the room; crossing over in front of you.

Move around. Does it sound great in one location and strange in another?

 

[FrantzM]

By the way, microphone stands can reflect short wavelengths to the mic and contaminate the measurement. The way you have set up your mic stand will create a lot of reflections. I suggest you set your mic up like this:

View attachment 359858

Most people would have their mic behind the sofa with the boom extending forwards to the listening position, but I realize that you have a wall there.

Nice fish tank, BTW. What fish do you keep?

Hi

Great suggestion, I would add that: .
The main listening position seems to be at the rear wall or very close to it. I am of the opinion of that not being ideal, yet, very common, perhaps for some unavoidable... Could you move the sofa a bit, 30 to 50 cm off the rear wall and run the correction protocol, with the mic as per @Keith_W suggestion?

Results are likely to be better.. Some absorption behind the listening position wold also help the imaging but there could be some aesthetics issues... although there are ways to mitigate these.

Peace.

 

[Tassin]

An acoustic panel with a print of your choice behind your sofa will also help and esthetically fit into your room.

 

[Basic Channel]

If you have the space and no moaning other half, acoustic panels can be made DIY cheaply and easily. I made 3 20cm deep 120x60cm panels for about 50 euro. The hanging of them is by far the most complicated thing, which is why mine lean against the wall and why my prospective ceiling panels became a 'bass trap' that sits in a corner.

I am in a much smaller room and sitting far closer to one side wall than the other but the difference was remarkable. I could never have achieved it with EQ and I can move without impacting the sound as much. With the right material, depth, and air gap, it's like the wall isn't there.

 

[Steven Holt]

What a beautiful room! Clearly, your gear isn't the problem, so you're on the right track. I'll make two non - technical suggestions : First, put drapes over that window ( and take a woman with you when you go shopping for them). Second, move those speakers out 1/3m and toe them in slightly (you will have to experiment on this). Good luck and welcome to ASR! PS love the fish tank!

 

[brett174]

Thanks again everyone for all your advice, and the compliments on my aquarium. It's mostly filled with neon tetras and green tiger barbs at the moment

Spent a fair bit of time taking some more measurements in REW with the microphone stand positioned behind the couch as suggested, although the results were pretty much identical. Also purchased the full version of DIRAC and that seems to have made a big difference! (red & green trends with DIRAC on vs blue and orange with it off).

So I guess where to from here? Room aesthetics are still pretty high on my list, so hesitant to start replacing the blinds / adding acoustic panels unless it will make a noticeable difference. Should I spent more time tweaking the target curves in DIRAC or is that about as good as it will get? I could also be talked into getting a small sub (maybe something like SVS Micro 3000 or REL T5x) and putting it near the potplant if that would give good results.

 

[Basic Channel]

So I guess where to from here? Room aesthetics are still pretty high on my list, so hesitant to start replacing the blinds / adding acoustic panels unless it will make a noticeable difference.

In my limited experience token gestures make little difference. Acoustic panels at the first reflection points, or perhaps in your case on the back wall behind the listeners head, make an absolutely audible difference. Panel placement is key, the ones on my offending wall are wow, the one between my speakers just makes me feel better. Fortunately room aesthetics is low on my list.

Maybe the picture is misleading but it looks like your reflection point would be the wall below the window anyway. You can easily work out early reflection points with a mirror. Well not so easy for the ceiling.

How do the windows open? If they slide up or open out of the room you can test to see the difference it makes if they are not there. Is the window out of shot right behind the listeners head?

 

[Keith_W]

Congratulations, the post Dirac measurements look a lot better than before you started.

Where to from here - don't spend any more money. Real improvements can be gained from refinements to your DSP and trying different target curves and different correction philosophies. This is what you should focus your attention on. Enjoy the sound and understand what the measurements mean.

Since room treatment was brought up, I suggest you take a look at the other REW tabs. Look at the RT60 and spectrograms. That will tell you how long it takes for sound to decay. You want the RT60 to be between 300ms - 500ms. Some people prefer <300ms, but to me those rooms sound too dead and unpleasant to be in. Bear in mind that room treatment tends to selectively absorb shorter wavelengths and you need to be careful otherwise you could easily unbalance the sound by killing off the top end whilst leaving the bottom end boomy.