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New setup from scratch - with DSP preferred

DigiPete

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$1600 with GLM?- that is indeed a great offer!

And don't get a DAC - get a DDC - toslink in and S/PDIF or AES/EBU out.
Keep it in the digital domain!
 
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mvnchies

mvnchies

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$1600 with GLM?- that is indeed a great offer!

And don't get a DAC - get a DDC - toslink in and S/PDIF or AES/EBU out.
Keep it in the digital domain!

I wasn't even aware you could do toslink to AES/ABU out. seems like it's optimal for Genelec... and you can use the remote then too.
hmm.
interesting...
 
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mvnchies

mvnchies

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Hi sorry to bump my own thread, but I was wondering...
if I set a budget of €500 for an amplifier to go with MiniDSP Flex + LS50 Meta + subwoofer,
what should I be looking at? I don't mind Class AB but I don't think I need more than 60W of power to be honest.
I can't find a lot of speaker amp measurements on this site other than Class D products - which seem nice, but I've had issues with Topping PA5 and MX5 in the recent past so I'm a little hesitant... and Loxjie A30 doesn't appear to have great performance with analogue input?
I will only be using it as basically a power-amp, as I wanted to control the volume with the MiniDSP remote.

Cheers!
 

sweetchaos

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Audiophonics Hypex Ncore NC252MP
500 eur with tax included

I would personally get more power than you think you need, to avoid clipping.
Hypex Ncore amps are an easy recommendation.
 

tonycollinet

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Audiophonics Hypex Ncore NC252MP
500 eur with tax included

I would personally get more power than you think you need, to avoid clipping.
Hypex Ncore amps are an easy recommendation.
Exactly what I was about to suggest.
 

djtetei

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I don't think I need more than 60W of power to be honest.
Given the fact that your speakers don't have a particularly high sensitivity (85 dB at 1 m) and are capable of maximum 106 dB SPL, they require a minimum of 125 Watts. To ensure a good headroom between 3 to 6 dB of power reserve, in my opinion, you would need an amplifier capable of delivering between 250 - 500 watt per channel.
Also, take into consideration the fact that the speakers impedance go down to 3.5 ohms.
 
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mvnchies

mvnchies

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ahh I have to start off by saying I might actually go for a pair of ELAC UBR62 speakers instead of the LS50 Meta - as I'd be getting a much better deal on these... and was able to demo at home, so I know they worked well. I don't know if it's a mistake but I'm saving about 1000 euro on the deal... and they sound great to me. nice staging for movies. the amp however was way out of my budget... so hmm.

Audiophonics Hypex Ncore NC252MP
500 eur with tax included

I would personally get more power than you think you need, to avoid clipping.
Hypex Ncore amps are an easy recommendation.
this looks very good - it does come out to just under 550 with taxes and shipping to here so that's within budget ish. I've only heard good things about the HypeX stuff.
not sure if I'm bad at searching/looking but does anyone happen to know whether it has Standby mode? and if so, is it automatic? so that I won't have to worry about it getting hot. because I read some HypeX stuff, power supply iirc? can get quite warm and not be good for longevity of the amplifier, if left on. but this is just what I've read, not been able to confirm. thank you! :)
One of these and some tower speakers should tick all the boxes and easy to set and forget, then watch and listen.
I was considering this but was unable to find any measurements of the amplifier part of it - and price is quite high here... 2000 euro or so with the UMIK-1.
it would of course have served as the all-in-one, but I'd like some flexibility so the 600 euro Flex made more sense given the price differences.
appreciate the suggestion though!

Given the fact that your speakers don't have a particularly high sensitivity (85 dB at 1 m) and are capable of maximum 106 dB SPL, they require a minimum of 125 Watts. To ensure a good headroom between 3 to 6 dB of power reserve, in my opinion, you would need an amplifier capable of delivering between 250 - 500 watt per channel.
Also, take into consideration the fact that the speakers impedance go down to 3.5 ohms.
dang, that's really a lot of power. I wonder if I'll ever reach 106 dB though. I listen quite low volume levels in general...
but I'll need to read up some more on how this all works, as I figure movies might have a lot more "dynamic range".

thank you everyone!
 

HarmonicTHD

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ahh I have to start off by saying I might actually go for a pair of ELAC UBR62 speakers instead of the LS50 Meta - as I'd be getting a much better deal on these... and was able to demo at home, so I know they worked well. I don't know if it's a mistake but I'm saving about 1000 euro on the deal... and they sound great to me. nice staging for movies. the amp however was way out of my budget... so hmm.


this looks very good - it does come out to just under 550 with taxes and shipping to here so that's within budget ish. I've only heard good things about the HypeX stuff.
not sure if I'm bad at searching/looking but does anyone happen to know whether it has Standby mode? and if so, is it automatic? so that I won't have to worry about it getting hot. because I read some HypeX stuff, power supply iirc? can get quite warm and not be good for longevity of the amplifier, if left on. but this is just what I've read, not been able to confirm. thank you! :)

I was considering this but was unable to find any measurements of the amplifier part of it - and price is quite high here... 2000 euro or so with the UMIK-1.
it would of course have served as the all-in-one, but I'd like some flexibility so the 600 euro Flex made more sense given the price differences.
appreciate the suggestion though!


dang, that's really a lot of power. I wonder if I'll ever reach 106 dB though. I listen quite low volume levels in general...
but I'll need to read up some more on how this all works, as I figure movies might have a lot more "dynamic range".

thank you everyone!
This might help with power requirements. You need to distinguish between average SPL level, maybe 80dB and peak maybe 100dB as music hardly has even 20dB range. Also the values, simply speaking work for 8 ohm and if your speaker drops to 4, you need to double the power needed.
 

Timcognito

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mvnchies

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Hi again everyone. After careful consideration and demo'ing a few speakers... I've decided that Genelec won my heart. I won't need to buy stands because of their size, and it comes with the DSP that I want - and they sound absolutely amazing. I will likely get 8330A to start off with and then upgrade to 8331A (perhaps best speakers I have heard are the 8341A, but 8331A are close). It's just so much easier having an "all in one" active speaker that also sounds really good - and compact enough. It took a bit of convincing for the "better half" to accept their goofy looks but... :) they are at least small enough to not be too much.

Thanks again everyone, looks like this adventure is over - and sorry if I went a bit around and against some advice here.
$1600 with GLM?- that is indeed a great offer!

And don't get a DAC - get a DDC - toslink in and S/PDIF or AES/EBU out.
Keep it in the digital domain!
Sorry to bug you again but I am wondering do you know any specific product I should look for, to get a good well-built thing for this purpose? I don't know what price range I'm looking at for this.

If not, I was thinking of just using SMSL DO100 as it has Dual XLR out - but even Genelec themselves when I asked them recommended using Digital input so that's saying something, I think... I just have no idea what I'm looking at - never seen one of these things before.
I take it https://www.thomann.de/se/blackmagic_design_teranex_mini_hdmi_zu_sdi_12g.htm this thing is a HDMI version of what you're talking about right?
 

DigiPete

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Hi again everyone. After careful consideration and demo'ing a few speakers... I've decided that Genelec won my heart. I won't need to buy stands because of their size, and it comes with the DSP that I want - and they sound absolutely amazing. I will likely get 8330A to start off with and then upgrade to 8331A (perhaps best speakers I have heard are the 8341A, but 8331A are close). It's just so much easier having an "all in one" active speaker that also sounds really good - and compact enough. It took a bit of convincing for the "better half" to accept their goofy looks but... :) they are at least small enough to not be too much.

Thanks again everyone, looks like this adventure is over - and sorry if I went a bit around and against some advice here.

Sorry to bug you again but I am wondering do you know any specific product I should look for, to get a good well-built thing for this purpose? I don't know what price range I'm looking at for this.

If not, I was thinking of just using SMSL DO100 as it has Dual XLR out - but even Genelec themselves when I asked them recommended using Digital input so that's saying something, I think... I just have no idea what I'm looking at - never seen one of these things before.
I take it https://www.thomann.de/se/blackmagic_design_teranex_mini_hdmi_zu_sdi_12g.htm this thing is a HDMI version of what you're talking about right?

Hey - no worries!
Genlec SAMs are always an excellent choice. ;)

It all depends on what your source is.
The Topping D10 DAC is well known to supply stable S/PDIF out and costs a mere fraction (€109 @ Audiophonics). So USB-> S/PDIF
We tested this, as a friend of mine borrowed a pair of my Genelecs (8250a), and it worked like a charm with just a simple S/PDIF to AES/EBU cable.

You can add a passive impedance transformer if you run a longer cable (>2m).
I use the Neutrik NADIT BNC-M (75 Ω BNC input and 110 Ω XLR output) and just add a 30cm BNC cable and a little S/PDIF plug converter.
You may find a similar solution form other producers, I just like sturdy PRO gear.
I run this on my Motu 8D for surround, as it has 2 S/PDIF connections on top of 2 AES connections for a total of 8 channels.

As for good but cost efficient HDMI -> AES, well I'm still working on that . . .

Don't hesitate to ask more questions.
 

Eetu

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Good choice, @mvnchies no worries! If you need something with optical in and coax out the Yamaha WXC-50 streamer/preamp would be a nice option. Here in Finland some stores sell the 8330A + WXC-50 as a set actually. Another, a bit more expensive, device would be the Bluesound Node which has really nice connectivity including HDMI eARC in.
 
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mvnchies

mvnchies

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Hey - no worries!
Genlec SAMs are always an excellent choice. ;)

It all depends on what your source is.
The Topping D10 DAC is well known to supply stable S/PDIF out and costs a mere fraction (€109 @ Audiophonics). So USB-> S/PDIF
We tested this, as a friend of mine borrowed a pair of my Genelecs (8250a), and it worked like a charm with just a simple S/PDIF to AES/EBU cable.

You can add a passive impedance transformer if you run a longer cable (>2m).
I use the Neutrik NADIT BNC-M (75 Ω BNC input and 110 Ω XLR output) and just add a 30cm BNC cable and a little S/PDIF plug converter.
You may find a similar solution form other producers, I just like sturdy PRO gear.
I run this on my Motu 8D for surround, as it has 2 S/PDIF connections on top of 2 AES connections for a total of 8 channels.

As for good but cost efficient HDMI -> AES, well I'm still working on that . . .

Don't hesitate to ask more questions.
Ohh I see... hmm. I didn't realize the digital input needed different impedance (?) cables. Would you go Digital in - speaker -> digital out - other speaker? Or how do you connect two of them if it only has 1 S/PDIF out?
That said... I noticed you need to have the GLM kit connected in order to use the GLM remote - if I'm understanding correctly...
I might just go the easy way and go Analogue in and get a remote volume DAC like the SMSL DO100, and minimize clutter.
My source is TV mainly, where I need optical or HDMI in, so trying to find something that works well like that. I am seeing a few optical to XLR AES/EBU converters but I have no idea if it works or how I would get 2 channels from it to be honest, it only has 1x AES/EBU out.

Thank you very much for the patience and the great replies - this is very helpful and nice of you!!

Good choice, @mvnchies no worries! If you need something with optical in and coax out the Yamaha WXC-50 streamer/preamp would be a nice option. Here in Finland some stores sell the 8330A + WXC-50 as a set actually. Another, a bit more expensive, device would be the Bluesound Node which has really nice connectivity including HDMI eARC in.
I did see those combos in Finland with the Bluesound... it makes me assume this:
Optical/HDMI to streamer(?) -> SPDIF to XLR converter like DigiPete showed above -> into 1 genelec speaker digital input -> digital output to the other genelec speaker?

Sorry if I'm completely confused here, never used professional speakers like these before :D it's a bit less intuitive to someone used to analogue stereo amplifiers and speakers.

Thank you very much you two, I'm excited to get this set up! I plan to order everything this weekend (hopefully even today). Feels like christmas is coming soon.

---

edit: XLR cables... if I decide to go for the analogue input... what is a good nicely built XLR cable? I haven't used anything other than basic €10 XLR cables before :)
 
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Triliza

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That GLM kit would benefit your experience with the speakers I'd guess. And it doesn't seem to be complicated to use:


To connect your TV, there seems also a way to do it with some of Genelecs subwoofers. They cost some, but with the GLM and a sub, it'd be a great experience I'd think (and easy to recommend since you'll be paying):

 
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mvnchies

mvnchies

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That GLM kit would benefit your experience with the speakers I'd guess. And it doesn't seem to be complicated to use:


To connect your TV, there seems also a way to do it with some of Genelecs subwoofers. They cost some, but with the GLM and a sub, it'd be a great experience I'd think (and easy to recommend since you'll be paying):

indeed! it's the DSP I was looking for, to get some room correction to play with. I heard a few room corrected systems and they always seem to make the midrange and bass a lot better :)

I was actually thinking of the 7350A later on, to add a subwoofer. it seems to be connected to the GLM network and thus would work with the DAC I was considering as well... but I'm not 100% sure how this all works yet. I'll have to research the subwoofer path a bit more.

Cheers!
 

DigiPete

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OK - let's take things from the top.
And yes - I get that it might seem a little confusing at first.
But I/ we will help you all we can - this is what communities like this is for.

AES3
S/PDIF Optical Toslink, S/PDIF Coaxial & AES/EBU are all part of the same standard for digital sound transfer.
They use the same protocol for transmitting sound in PCM format.

AES/EBU is the professional standard that can easily run up to 100m. It uses standard XLR plugs and is a balanced 110Ω cables.
They look exactly like analogue XLR cables and are interchangeable for shorter runs, say 10m.
The only way to tell the difference is usually just to read the print on the cable.

S/PDIF is the consumer standard and it comes in:
- S/PDIF Optical Toslink - often just referred to as Toslink &
- S/PDIF Coaxial - often just referred to as S/PDIF. It uses standard RCA plugs and is a un-balanced 75Ω cables.

S/PDIF cables should be kept short like 2m, Toslink about the same but sometimes longer depending on the build quality.

All AES3 connections carry a stereo PCM signal up to 24bit at 192khz sampling frequency.
TV's however usually re-samples everything to 48khz atm.


Genelec SAM

Genelec Smart Active Monitors is a whole family of active monitors with build in room compensating DSP (the GLM system).
The GLM system can handle an insane number of monitors and subs (80 or something).
It optimises in room frequency response, corrects for distance and makes subwoofer integration a breeze with variable crossover frequency between sub and monitors.

Components of a SAM system with GLM is as follows:

- Computer (Mac or PC) to operate the GLM system using the GLM software (free from Genelec)
- GLM interface to help computer talk to the monitor system
- RJ45 cables connecting the GLM interface to all SAM monitors and subs in one long chain
- Calibrated measurement microphone for room response measurement as well as distance compensation.
- Optional volume control as wired or remote
- SAM monitors and optional Subwoofers.

You need all this to set up the system - do room calibration etc.


SAM - daily use.

Stand-alone operation of SAM monitors is possible, as the room correction filters can be uploaded to the monitors/sub.
Monitors and subs actually have automatic wake up / sleep functionality with very low standby power consumption.

Volume control (wired or remote) only work if you keep the GLM interface connected and powered on.
However, the GLM interface just need to be connected to a standard 5V phone charger.

Change of room calibration can only be done when a computer is connected to the GLM interface.
Perhaps you have two different listening positions, or you wanna change between analogue and digital inputs without turning off the digital signal source.
The new wireless remote actually change between calibrations.


Digital or analogue?

Digital input is alway to be preferred to SAM systems if the source is digital.
All SAM monitors use DSP for room correction and crossovers, so any signal entering a SAM monitor will be digitised.
Analogue inputs are fine if your source is analogue, as Genelecs have quite high quality ADC's (analogue to digital converters).

Digital to digital conversions are completely lossless (well usually), while analogue gear always adds some degree of noice and distortion.
The same goes for cabling. Hence Sony and Philips invented the S/PDIF to ensure lossless transfer of sound from CD players back in the day.
 

DigiPete

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@mvnchies

Cabling: You connect your source to one monitor input and then the output to the other monitor.
So: AES/EBU in - monitor -> AES/EBU out - other monitor.
The GLM software will help you choose right and left, so you can run first to the right or the left.

Don't worry about mixing S/PDIF and AES/EBU on Genelec SAM as long as you keep the cables to 2-3m long.
You can get ready made S/DIF to AES/EBU cables like the

Most Toslink to S/PDIF converters will do just fine for your TV. A simple converter like the €20 one from Audiophonics.
The Yamaha WXC-50 is also a great option. Especially if you want to stream higher resolution music say from Tidal.
It also allows you to connect computer/phone/tablet to USB or casually to through bluetooth.

Subwoofer is always a great option.
People complain that the Genelec subs are expensive, but trust me, they are all worth it both for overall sound, room correction interface and result.
But the 8330 is already a capable little monitor, so no rush to get a sub.
 
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DigiPete

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That GLM kit would benefit your experience with the speakers I'd guess. And it doesn't seem to be complicated to use:


To connect your TV, there seems also a way to do it with some of Genelecs subwoofers. They cost some, but with the GLM and a sub, it'd be a great experience I'd think (and easy to recommend since you'll be paying):


Genelecs home speakers (F subs + G monitors) indeed have S/PDIF and Toslink inputs on the subs.
Unfortunately they are otherwise fully analogue, so don't have any room correction apart from a few DIP swiches.
They play well - but does your room???

DSP was part of the assignment, so these would have to be fed by an already corrected signal complicating things.
I suppose the new miniDSP Flex would do the job and keep it digital into the sub . . .
 
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