New setup from scratch - with DSP preferred

[Triliza]

Genelecs home speakers (F subs + G monitors) indeed have S/PDIF and Toslink inputs on the subs.
Unfortunately they are otherwise fully analogue, so don't have any room correction apart from a few DIP swiches.
They play well - but does your room???

DSP was part of the assignment, so these would have to be fed by an already corrected signal complicating things.
I suppose the new miniDSP Flex would do the job and keep it digital into the sub . . .

You are right, I didn't thought about that.

 

[mvnchies]

OK - let's take things from the top.
And yes - I get that it might seem a little confusing at first.
But I/ we will help you all we can - this is what communities like this is for.

AES3
S/PDIF Optical Toslink, S/PDIF Coaxial & AES/EBU are all part of the same standard for digital sound transfer.
They use the same protocol for transmitting sound in PCM format.

AES/EBU is the professional standard that can easily run up to 100m. It uses standard XLR plugs and is a balanced 110Ω cables.
They look exactly like analogue XLR cables and are interchangeable for shorter runs, say 10m.
The only way to tell the difference is usually just to read the print on the cable.

S/PDIF is the consumer standard and it comes in:
- S/PDIF Optical Toslink - often just referred to as Toslink &
- S/PDIF Coaxial - often just referred to as S/PDIF. It uses standard RCA plugs and is a un-balanced 75Ω cables.

S/PDIF cables should be kept short like 2m, Toslink about the same but sometimes longer depending on the build quality.

All AES3 connections carry a stereo PCM signal up to 24bit at 192khz sampling frequency.
TV's however usually re-samples everything to 48khz atm.


Genelec SAM

Genelec Smart Active Monitors is a whole family of active monitors with build in room compensating DSP (the GLM system).
The GLM system can handle an insane number of monitors and subs (80 or something).
It optimises in room frequency response, corrects for distance and makes subwoofer integration a breeze with variable crossover frequency between sub and monitors.

Components of a SAM system with GLM is as follows:

- Computer (Mac or PC) to operate the GLM system using the GLM software (free from Genelec)
- GLM interface to help computer talk to the monitor system
- RJ45 cables connecting the GLM interface to all SAM monitors and subs in one long chain
- Calibrated measurement microphone for room response measurement as well as distance compensation.
- Optional volume control as wired or remote
- SAM monitors and optional Subwoofers.

You need all this to set up the system - do room calibration etc.


SAM - daily use.

Stand-alone operation of SAM monitors is possible, as the room correction filters can be uploaded to the monitors/sub.
Monitors and subs actually have automatic wake up / sleep functionality with very low standby power consumption.

Volume control (wired or remote) only work if you keep the GLM interface connected and powered on.
However, the GLM interface just need to be connected to a standard 5V phone charger.

Change of room calibration can only be done when a computer is connected to the GLM interface.
Perhaps you have two different listening positions, or you wanna change between analogue and digital inputs without turning off the digital signal source.
The new wireless remote actually change between calibrations.


Digital or analogue?

Digital input is alway to be preferred to SAM systems if the source is digital.
All SAM monitors use DSP for room correction and crossovers, so any signal entering a SAM monitor will be digitised.
Analogue inputs are fine if your source is analogue, as Genelecs have quite high quality ADC's (analogue to digital converters).

Digital to digital conversions are completely lossless (well usually), while analogue gear always adds some degree of noice and distortion.
The same goes for cabling. Hence Sony and Philips invented the S/PDIF to ensure lossless transfer of sound from CD players back in the day.

Sooo... I know you're pushing a lot for Digital - with your name and all being DigiPete... buuuut...
I have to admit all these extra boxes and cables and stuff are sounding a little much...
but if I'm understanding you correctly... SPDIF to XLR cable exists, meaning only one cable from a SPDIF compatible box like the one you linked?
Then... XLR cable from one monitor to the other - but this does not need to be AES/EBU 110 ohm?

and then I can use the GLM remote if I connect the GLM kit? I just would love to not have to have multiple boxes up on the TV bench if possible. I already think just having a separate DAC + amplifier is hard...

Sorry if I'm being very anti-audio-quality here, I just hope it'll be Good Enough for my liking...

GLM sounds perfect for me though, I love that you can save it to the monitors themselves and all - I plan to use my laptop to set it up and measure, then hopefully not have to fiddle with it unless I change positioning and whatnot like you say - it sounds so useful and relatively easy to use! especially if I want to add a sub and rear channels for home cinema style... when we buy a new house of course... dreaming is fun

I'll be honest though - I mostly listen to spotify and sometimes stream my own music library (some FLAC, mostly 320 mp3 - self rips).
not sure I need the lossless... but I decided: I will try both analogue and digital. then return one depending on if I can tell the difference or if it's big enough.
it feels a bit rude of me to use return policies like that but I guess that's why they exist, so we can try things in our own environments.

@mvnchies

Cabling: You connect your source to one monitor input and then the output to the other monitor.
So: AES/EBU in - monitor -> AES/EBU out - other monitor.
The GLM software will help you choose right and left, so you can run first to the right or the left.

Don't worry about mixing S/PDIF and AES/EBU on Genelec SAM as long as you keep the cables to 2-3m long.
You can get ready made S/DIF to AES/EBU cables like the

Most Toslink to S/PDIF converters will do just fine for your TV. A simple converter like the €20 one from Audiophonics.
The Yamaha WXC-50 is also a great option. Especially if you want to stream higher resolution music say from Tidal.
It also allows you to connect computer/phone/tablet to USB or casually to through bluetooth.

Subwoofer is always a great option.
People complain that the Genelec subs are expensive, but trust me, they are all worth it both for overall sound, room correction interface and result.
But the 8330 is already a capable little monitor, so no rush to get a sub.

okay so I think I got it right - TV optical to a little toslink-SPDIF converter, then SPDIF-XLR AES/EBU cable to the genelec, then XLR cable to the other genelec.
I'll try a cheap option first then maybe if I like that setup I can get a more advanced option like the Yamaha or a Bluesound.

I do have the budget for a subwoofer as well but I think I'll wait with that.

what I'm not sure about though is that if I do use the analogue in... can I still use a subwoofer?
do I go DAC (with 2 XLR) to the subwoofer, then subwoofer to Genelecs? or would I need another kind of connection from the DAC?

I assume it somehow can tell everything is connected with the GLM stuff?

this is a lot to take in, especially on a saturday night, but I think I'm starting to get a feel for the digital side now

Thank you so so much mr DigiPete, it's super helpful!

 

[DigiPete]

No worries

I am a self confessed Genelec fanboy.
And I have been pushing digital and Genelec hard for the last decade, after I spent an entire year on the pursuit for better sound for less.
I'm a technology strategist by trade, so I knew what to look for, I just didn't know if anybody was making it.
I documented my journey on Computer Audiophile - now Audiophile style on DigiPete's Blog.
I landed on Genelec SAM as the solution that does everything right and cost efficient by strictly following science.

Genelec SAM subwoofers can both handle digital and analogue inputs.
You wire the inputs to the sub first and then outputs from sub to your monitors.
And you connect the GLM interface to the monitors and sub using standard RJ45 network cable.
The RJ45 cables are the only extra cables you have with the SAM system.

And you are right - both bass and midranges becomes much clearer with well implemented room correction.
Most people only get to experience this if they get at quality surround system with good automated room correction.
Even the best professional studios, with expensive purpose build rooms, have to use some sort of room correction.
With Genelec SAM it all comes build in out of the box and is scalable as you add more monitors or subwoofers.

Genelec makes room compensation easy - it's a push of a button.

For tinkers who loves to dabble as much as they love good sound, well now the miniDSP Flex is a great new DSP device.
Fully digital preamp with DSP and options for digital or analogue outputs. Amir tested it, and it performed really great.
Note that the Flex is close to €/$1k with Dirac, but great if you like tweaking on a conventional analogue system.

 

[mvnchies]

No worries

I am a self confessed Genelec fanboy.
And I have been pushing digital and Genelec hard for the last decade, after I spent an entire year on the pursuit for better sound for less.
I'm a technology strategist by trade, so I knew what to look for, I just didn't know if anybody was making it.
I documented my journey on Computer Audiophile - now Audiophile style on DigiPete's Blog.
I landed on Genelec SAM as the solution that does everything right and cost efficient by strictly following science.

Genelec SAM subwoofers can both handle digital and analogue inputs.
You wire the inputs to the sub first and then outputs from sub to your monitors.
And you connect the GLM interface to the monitors and sub using standard RJ45 network cable.
The RJ45 cables are the only extra cables you have with the SAM system.

And you are right - both bass and midranges becomes much clearer with well implemented room correction.
Most people only get to experience this if they get at quality surround system with good automated room correction.
Even the best professional studios, with expensive purpose build rooms, have to use some sort of room correction.
With Genelec SAM it all comes build in out of the box and is scalable as you add more monitors or subwoofers.

Genelec makes room compensation easy - it's a push of a button.

For tinkers who loves to dabble as much as they love good sound, well now the miniDSP Flex is a great new DSP device.
Fully digital preamp with DSP and options for digital or analogue outputs. Amir tested it, and it performed really great.
Note that the Flex is close to €/$1k with Dirac, but great if you like tweaking on a conventional analogue system.

I just read your blog last night - it was a fun read. Should hit you up next time I'm in Copenhagen if you still live there... seems like a very different Genelec system, would love to hear it!

I'm a huge fan of what I'm seeing from GLM, both from the review here on ASR and all the youtube videos I found. can't wait to try it out!

Actually just returned the miniDSP Flex, was going to build a system around it, to get some DSP - but it costs around 800 euro here with the microphone needed, which I realized is a bit much compared to GLM. for me, it seems like the full system will cost less using Genelec (I got a 1500 euro deal on the 8330APM pack with GLM).

there were a few moments where I even debated going 8331A just to hop straight into the deep end and never look back - but with a house to buy... it seemed a bit irresponsible...
house first, then Coaxials

Thank you again mr DigiPete!!
I will update this thread when all is set up - need to go on a trip this week so it looks like 11 days from now is when I can actually start setting things up.

cheers!

 

[DigiPete]

You are very welcome, @mvnchies , and equally welcome in Copenhagen.

I did have fun with that blog back in the day, and it caused some heated discussions in the community.
Room correction and going all digital has become much more accepted since then (as predicted).
These days, @amirm's tests highlights the validity of many of Genelec's claims over the years.
So thanks, Amir.

Please reach out if setting up the SAM causes any grief!

 

[mvnchies]

I got it all set up now, playing with measurements and the DSP part... it really is night/day difference. I'm getting one null and some small peaks but other than that it seems like GLM is doing some magic of sorts. it sounds absolutely amazing!
I'm getting under 40hz -6dB point in my room too, which is much lower than I expected. I'm removing the subwoofer and hoping I won't ever feel like I'll need to add one... and it'll have to be a Genelec SAM subwoofer then of course.

really really surprised some people find these to sound too quiet even at 3 meter distance. I'm not even close to maxing them out and I have a -20db limit in GLM.

I think it was rather easy and straightforward doing the measurements and whatnot. added a little -2.5db shelf at 2khz just to warm tilt a bit and it sounded great to me, it's about -5db at 20khz then.

highly recommending anyone on the fence about these to give them a try. they're a lot of fun to use and even the set up is fun, as well as great sounding.

 

[DigiPete]

I got it all set up now, playing with measurements and the DSP part... it really is night/day difference. I'm getting one null and some small peaks but other than that it seems like GLM is doing some magic of sorts. it sounds absolutely amazing!
I'm getting under 40hz -6dB point in my room too, which is much lower than I expected. I'm removing the subwoofer and hoping I won't ever feel like I'll need to add one... and it'll have to be a Genelec SAM subwoofer then of course.

really really surprised some people find these to sound too quiet even at 3 meter distance. I'm not even close to maxing them out and I have a -20db limit in GLM.

I think it was rather easy and straightforward doing the measurements and whatnot. added a little -2.5db shelf at 2khz just to warm tilt a bit and it sounded great to me, it's about -5db at 20khz then.

highly recommending anyone on the fence about these to give them a try. they're a lot of fun to use and even the set up is fun, as well as great sounding.

Hey @mvnchies

Genlec SAM's are really magic.
Well, science

Thanks for your feedback, congrats and many happy listening hours.

 

[mvnchies]

Hey @mvnchies

Genlec SAM's are really magic.
Well, science

Thanks for your feedback, congrats and many happy listening hours.

Thank you! I will have way too many hours listening now that winter is coming as well...

that reminds me - I'm wondering...
if the 8330A is "flat" in the measurement graph window, but the predicted room response measurements here on ASR show a "hifi slope"...
Does that mean the target is the sloped one, at the distance I'm listening at?
Because I don't find them at all too bright or anything even with 0 added slope - even if I do prefer a little warmth with some poorer produced recordings.

I wasn't able to find out anything about any target... wonder if it just means I don't mind bright sound!

Cheers!! Suomi #1!

 

[DigiPete]

Thank you! I will have way too many hours listening now that winter is coming as well...

that reminds me - I'm wondering...
if the 8330A is "flat" in the measurement graph window, but the predicted room response measurements here on ASR show a "hifi slope"...
Does that mean the target is the sloped one, at the distance I'm listening at?
Because I don't find them at all too bright or anything even with 0 added slope - even if I do prefer a little warmth with some poorer produced recordings.

I wasn't able to find out anything about any target... wonder if it just means I don't mind bright sound!

Cheers!! Suomi #1!

Genelec's target has always been fully flat / linear, as they are really engineered to be Monitors = tools for recording / mix / mastering.
No silly house curve, no distortion, just pure WYSIWYG.

As you found, you can now tailor the freq response curve, but that is a more recent addition.
I think it was driven by requests from an increasing following of home audiophiles.

Genelec really do listen to user inputs!
They exchanged the GLM controller once - and it was a rather expensive upgrade for many people.
And you needed the new HW to run the new SW upgrades.

So I suggested that they offered a time limited trade-in at reduced price.
See and behold - they came back - recognised the idea - and made a very generous trade-in scheme.
Yes - I'm a long standing fan.

 

[mvnchies]

Genelec's target has always been fully flat / linear, as they are really engineered to be Monitors = tools for recording / mix / mastering.
No silly house curve, no distortion, just pure WYSIWYG.

As you found, you can now tailor the freq response curve, but that is a more recent addition.
I think it was driven by requests from an increasing following of home audiophiles.

Genelec really do listen to user inputs!
They exchanged the GLM controller once - and it was a rather expensive upgrade for many people.
And you needed the new HW to run the new SW upgrades.

So I suggested that they offered a time limited trade-in at reduced price.
See and behold - they came back - recognised the idea - and made a very generous trade-in scheme.
Yes - I'm a long standing fan.

I see - so there's no tilt/compensation applied in the GLM window?

Reason I'm asking because from what I understand-

Genelec 8330A Review (Studio Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelec 8330A studio monitor (powered speaker). It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me. The 8330A costs US $895 each. The 8330a naturally follows the current design style of Genelec 2-way non-coaxial speakers: This is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

this measurement is taken at 1m distance, but the "estimated in-room response" is for... longer distance?
I feel a bit dumb for using these measurements to make purchasing decision but I don't feel like I understand them fully, to be honest...

so I'm looking to "match" the GLM (green) curve to a slope, if I want to match the estimated in-room response there? Just to try things out and experiment a bit.

I love that you can just alter the sound so easily and then SAVE it to the speakers themselves... it has been driving me nuts that I can't get my EQ profile for headphones on any PC I use them with

Thank you again DigiPete, you rock!

 

[DigiPete]

I see - so there's no tilt/compensation applied in the GLM window?

Reason I'm asking because from what I understand-

Genelec 8330A Review (Studio Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelec 8330A studio monitor (powered speaker). It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me. The 8330A costs US $895 each. The 8330a naturally follows the current design style of Genelec 2-way non-coaxial speakers: This is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

this measurement is taken at 1m distance, but the "estimated in-room response" is for... longer distance?
I feel a bit dumb for using these measurements to make purchasing decision but I don't feel like I understand them fully, to be honest...

so I'm looking to "match" the GLM (green) curve to a slope, if I want to match the estimated in-room response there? Just to try things out and experiment a bit.

I love that you can just alter the sound so easily and then SAVE it to the speakers themselves... it has been driving me nuts that I can't get my EQ profile for headphones on any PC I use them with

Thank you again DigiPete, you rock!

Thanks

The Kippel SW makes some guesstimation - probably based on a standard room and listening distance.
I can but guess, but I'm sure Kippel will have that info somewhere.
However . . .

You just go ahead and design any freq response in GLM that you want to try out and see how it feels.
Luckily you can switch back and forth in an instance.
And consider an extra "late night profile" with sub bass turned down, if you have neighbours or others you want to be nice to

 

[mvnchies]

Thanks

The Kippel SW makes some guesstimation - probably based on a standard room and listening distance.
I can but guess, but I'm sure Kippel will have that info somewhere.
However . . .

You just go ahead and design any freq response in GLM that you want to try out and see how it feels.
Luckily you can switch back and forth in an instance.
And consider an extra "late night profile" with sub bass turned down, if you have neighbours or others you want to be nice to

I decided to lower the slope to go from 200Hz down instead… got some complaints that there wasn’t enough warmth/midbass from the SO…
Re-did the positioning as well, got some additional sub bass extension.
How do these things do 36Hz I wonder- very pleased.

Made a few profiles now - it’s so much fun, hearing all the changes in real time. I am super happy with the imaging and stage, even at my listening distance.
Nearfield was a fun experience too, razor sharp imaging- made me want to try the 8320A for desktop setup in the future

I have never had audio this good at home before, truly a fantastic setup for all intents and purposes.

Just felt like gushing once more, feels like I finally control my audio rather than the audio dictating how I set up my room and do the listening… constant speaker struggles.

Cheers everyone!

 

[DigiPete]

. . .

I have never had audio this good at home before, truly a fantastic setup for all intents and purposes.

Just felt like gushing once more, feels like I finally control my audio rather than the audio dictating how I set up my room and do the listening… constant speaker struggles.

Cheers everyone!

Careful @mvnchies , you are starting to sound like a Fanboi

 

[lennyanders]

Hey,

I have a pretty similar plan to mvnchies. I want to switch my currently completely analog/passive setup to Genelec 8340 (RAW) with SAM. First I thought I will just use some kind of preamp (I was thinking of the Sabaj A10d 2022) but then I read a bit more and the full digital route, to avoid ADC, sounds just too interesting and is maybe even a bit cheaper.

For volume control, I think I would just use the Genelec remote.

This thread was already really helpful, so thanks for everyone here, but the thing is that I want to connect two sources. 1. my TV, which has eARC and Optical out and 2. my CD-Player, which has optical and coaxial out. My thinking was to use some kind of optical switch and after that an optical to coaxial converter and then a coaxial to XLR AES/EBU cable to connect to the speakers.

The following options look the best to me, but I'm really not sure which would be best.

1: Tindie Automatic SPDIF (Optical/RCA) Audio Switch
- Sadly, the coaxial output option isn't available anymore, so I would need an optical to coaxial converter.
- It has automatic switching, so I wouldn't need an extra remote control (really appreciated, I have already enough with the Genelec one)

2: OEHLBACH Optosel 4:1 MKII
- It is from a reputable brand but also relatively expensive and has no automatic switching

3: DAC Converter LiNKFOR 192 Khz DAC Converter Switch
- The cheapest option
- Has coaxial out but also a DAC which I don't need
- Also no automatic switching
- Small brand, don't know if it is any good quality wise, but I guess if I only use the digital inputs/outputs it should be no problem

I also don't really know which optical to coaxial converter I should choose, if I need it, so suggestion for that would be appreciated too.

I hope everything is clear from what I wrote and thanks in advance.

 

[DigiPete]

Hey,

I have a pretty similar plan to mvnchies. I want to switch my currently completely analog/passive setup to Genelec 8340 (RAW) with SAM. First I thought I will just use some kind of preamp (I was thinking of the Sabaj A10d 2022) but then I read a bit more and the full digital route, to avoid ADC, sounds just too interesting and is maybe even a bit cheaper.

For volume control, I think I would just use the Genelec remote.

Hey @lennyanders

This kind of digital switching is highly personal, as it all depends on out needs for I/O, user interface and price range.

Just keep an eye out for what bit depths and sampling frequencies the device has and that it doesn't re-sample from one to another.
I'd personally prefer 24bit and all common combinations (44.1-176,4khz & 48- 192khz).
However your TV likely only delivers 48khz and it's 44,1khz if it's standard Redbook CD's.

I usually go with:
1) PRO audio gear form PRO vendors - or
2) Chi-fi DAC's with sufficient I/O's

You didn't say where you are from, but for PRO gear have a look at:
Thomann for Europe
Sweetwater for US/Canada

As an example, Thomann has price resonable PRO stuff like these from Lindy
These cover up to 96khz sample rate.

These as well as the ones you mention all will make sound and get you off the ground.
I hope this helps, or just ask more questions!

 

[lennyanders]

Hey @lennyanders

This kind of digital switching is highly personal, as it all depends on out needs for I/O, user interface and price range.

Just keep an eye out for what bit depths and sampling frequencies the device has and that it doesn't re-sample from one to another.
I'd personally prefer 24bit and all common combinations (44.1-176,4khz & 48- 192khz).
However your TV likely only delivers 48khz and it's 44,1khz if it's standard Redbook CD's.

I usually go with:
1) PRO audio gear form PRO vendors - or
2) Chi-fi DAC's with sufficient I/O's

You didn't say where you are from, but for PRO gear have a look at:
Thomann for Europe
Sweetwater for US/Canada

As an example, Thomann has price resonable PRO stuff like these from Lindy
These cover up to 96khz sample rate.

These as well as the ones you mention all will make sound and get you off the ground.
I hope this helps, or just ask more questions!

Hey, thanks for your response. I saw the Lindy's already, but wasn't sure if they are good, since I couldn't find much about them. But I guess they are spec-wise good and even have automatic switching, so I think I will go with the Lindy switch and converter.

I'm from Germany, so Thomann is good. I originally wanted to get everything from music store (the real store is also relatively close to me) but I guess since Thomann has everything I need, I will be getting everything from them.

Here is my current list:

I think this is all I need, or is there anything I am missing? I'm not totally sure if I need coaxial to male xlr or female xlr, is male xlr correct?

 

[DigiPete]

Here is my current list:
View attachment 237697
I think this is all I need, or is there anything I am missing? I'm not totally sure if I need coaxial to male xlr or female xlr, is male xlr correct?

Male XLR is the input for both digital and analogue.
The list seems spot on.

Personally, I always give the brick and mortar shops the chance to sell me at the same prices.
I think they are worth supporting, even if Thomann actually have very good support.
I wouldn't pay more locally as I need no service, and they used to take the deal.

It'll be an awesome setup - I'm still in awe of my setup despite having run it for more than a decade.
Good luck!

 

[MCH]

Hey, thanks for your response. I saw the Lindy's already, but wasn't sure if they are good, since I couldn't find much about them. But I guess they are spec-wise good and even have automatic switching, so I think I will go with the Lindy switch and converter.

I'm from Germany, so Thomann is good. I originally wanted to get everything from music store (the real store is also relatively close to me) but I guess since Thomann has everything I need, I will be getting everything from them.

Here is my current list:
View attachment 237697
I think this is all I need, or is there anything I am missing? I'm not totally sure if I need coaxial to male xlr or female xlr, is male xlr correct?

Hey Lenny, I have been eyeing the Lindy auto switch for a while (btw, cheaper in amazon.de, link below) but I don't have use for it at the time so didn't buy it. I would appreciate if you report back your experience with it. Thanks!
LINDY 70437 Automatic Optical 4 Port Audio Switch https://amzn.eu/d/gRZ9ZsS

 

[lennyanders]

I think I'll sleep a few nights before I make the final decision to buy everything. But maybe I'll go to my "local" music store then (I guess it's not that much smaller of a company than Thomann, but if I have issues I can just go to them) and get the Lindy stuff from Amazon to save a few bucks.

When I have everything here, you can be sure that I write about it here.

 

[lennyanders]

Okay, maybe one night was enough. I ordered everything now, and it should be here in 2-3 days. I'm very excited. Sorry for the spam, haha.