New Philharmonic BMR HT Towers

[Everett T]

NicC has an Emotiva XPA2 amp:

View attachment 335563

It's more than adequate to drive the BMR line of speakers, even the original BMR with the scanspeak classic woofer dragging the sensitivity down to the low low 80s..

 

[Nkam]

Well like anything , obviously an amplifier is going to matter.

how much distortion it produces , dynamic range l etc.

it will drive the speakers fine and like others have said here , the speaker and the room really do matter more , imho

 

[Nkam]

Did I screw up this thread with my last post?
lol

seems to have stopped the momentum.

 

[Penelinfi]

Did I screw up this thread with my last post?
lol

seems to have stopped the momentum.

Probably because the discussion on amplifiers needs to go no further but everyone has forgotten the BMR talk before the amp stuff

Perhaps I should buy some BMR drivers and try them out for midrange duties as a pseudo example of the wide dispersion. I did have some older versions at one point which were great considering they were selling for $6 each or something

 

[Nkam]

Probably because the discussion on amplifiers needs to go no further but everyone has forgotten the BMR talk before the amp stuff

Perhaps I should buy some BMR drivers and try them out for midrange duties as a pseudo example of the wide dispersion. I did have some older versions at one point which were great considering they were selling for $6 each or something

I do wonder what the tolerances of the BMR drivers are.
I know they don’t sell them in stereo pairs.

but wonder if they are tight enough to make stereo speakers. Or does Dennis sift through them and match them before assembling?

@Dennis Murphy ?

 

[NicC]

Nkam - I think your post simply encapsulates what people here know - and what I am learning. I did a little research about what exactly amplifiers do and how some models do things 'better' than others and perhaps justify their $20 000+ price tags. I really appreciate the advice and knowledge about speakers + room and their pivotal role in the listening experience. I doubt my tinnitus-blaring, 55yo ears will appreciate the nuances of a $30 000 amp, but am thinking that an investement in speakers like the GE Triton1Rs (which I heard and was blown away by) or BMRs might be a noticeable and pleasant upgrade - with my Marantz and Emotiva. I think my personality dictates that to spend big dollars, I require a big return in sound - but let's not go down the diminishing returns rabbit hole

 

[Nkam]

Nkam - I think your post simply encapsulates what people here know - and what I am learning. I did a little research about what exactly amplifiers do and how some models do things 'better' than others and perhaps justify their $20 000+ price tags. I really appreciate the advice and knowledge about speakers + room and their pivotal role in the listening experience. I doubt my tinnitus-blaring, 55yo ears will appreciate the nuances of a $30 000 amp, but am thinking that an investement in speakers like the GE Triton1Rs (which I heard and was blown away by) or BMRs might be a noticeable and pleasant upgrade - with my Marantz and Emotiva. I think my personality dictates that to spend big dollars, I require a big return in sound - but let's not go down the diminishing returns rabbit hole

lol. I have 54 year old ears. No tinnitus thank the lord but I know what you mean

it’s why I got a Benchmark AHB2 and LA4 preamp and am done.
super well measuring and that LA4 pre is really something special. perfect timing on it.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I do wonder what the tolerances of the BMR drivers are.
I know they don’t sell them in stereo pairs.

but wonder if they are tight enough to make stereo speakers. Or does Dennis sift through them and match them before assembling?

@Dennis Murphy ?

The BMR driver is a very elegant design--it does what it's advertised to do with very simple construction. We test every midrange before installing it. So far (and that's a lot of far--hundreds and hundreds) we just haven't run into tolerance issues in terms of frequency response. We had a reliability issue with on production run, but we've taken care of that.

 

[Nkam]

The BMR driver is a very elegant design--it does what it's advertised to do with very simple construction. We test every midrange before installing it. So far (and that's a lot of far--hundreds and hundreds) we just haven't run into tolerance issues in terms of frequency response. We had a reliability issue with on production run, but we've taken care of that.

ok,wow

impressive. Most impressive.

 

[solrage]

@Dennis Murphy Was curious about the max power handling of the HTs (max wattage recommended?) and if you've tested max SPL? I know most don't care about volume above reference for home theater applications, but for certain (especially 20th century) classical recordings I've seen dynamic ranges of 65+dB, and even if one can get a residential noise floor to 45dB (not easy) that's 110db max. I've actually measured brief transient peaks at 115dB before. Finding speakers that have the specs to achieve that even at short distances (<9ft.) with good on/off-axis performance is almost impossible unless you want to spend an arm-and-a-leg for stuff like Perlisten's S7t. The HTs intrigue me and are on my short list of considerations. It's rare to find speakers designed to sacrifice bass extension for sensitivity, and in an age with good/cheap-ish subwoofers that are easy to integrate I don't know why this isn't more common and why designers insist on chasing bass extension. Price and looks are very attractive to boot, as are the high quality drivers.

 

[Nkam]

@Dennis Murphy Was curious about the max power handling of the HTs (max wattage recommended?) and if you've tested max SPL? I know most don't care about volume above reference for home theater applications, but for certain (especially 20th century) classical recordings I've seen dynamic ranges of 65+dB, and even if one can get a residential noise floor to 45dB (not easy) that's 110db max. I've actually measured brief transient peaks at 115dB before. Finding speakers that have the specs to achieve that even at short distances (<9ft.) with good on/off-axis performance is almost impossible unless you want to spend an arm-and-a-leg for stuff like Perlisten's S7t. The HTs intrigue me and are on my short list of considerations. It's rare to find speakers designed to sacrifice bass extension for sensitivity, and in an age with good/cheap-ish subwoofers that are easy to integrate I don't know why this isn't more common and why designers insist on chasing bass extension. Price and looks are very attractive to boot, as are the high quality drivers.

115db is silly loud.
pardon for my responding to your post to Dennis, I don’t mean to act as a know it all.

it’s just that levels like that will damage your hearing quick.
be careful.

peace

 

[solrage]

115db is silly loud.
pardon for my responding to your post to Dennis, I don’t mean to act as a know it all.

it’s just that levels like that will damage your hearing quick.
be careful.

peace

The 115dB is a transient peak; something that lasts for a fraction of a second. Max sustained SPL has been about 110. Even that will hurt your hearing pretty quickly, but none of these last very long. Even in sustained climaxes it's rare that I see recordings get above -10dB, and the vast majority of the time classical music is recorded between -35dB and -25dB, which is 75db-85dB at the references I'm talking about.

 

[Nkam]

The 115dB is a transient peak; something that lasts for a fraction of a second. Max sustained SPL has been about 110. Even that will hurt your hearing pretty quickly, but none of these last very long. Even in sustained climaxes it's rare that I see recordings get above -10dB, and the vast majority of the time classical music is recorded between -35dB and -25dB, which is 75db-85dB at the references I'm talking about.

I listen to 80% classical and haven’t heard a piece that is 85db and hits 115db peaks.
maybe I’m not understanding what you are saying . Apologies.

it’s just super duper loud though at first glance.
My Marshall stack gets 110+db. But that is a 100W guitar amp .
you can’t be in the same room with it.

 

[solrage]

I listen to 80% classical and haven’t heard a piece that is 85db and hits 115db peaks.
maybe I’m not understanding what you are saying . Apologies.

it’s just super duper loud though at first glance.
My Marshall stack gets 110+db. But that is a 100W guitar amp .
you can’t be in the same room with it.

Most of my music listening is with headphones and often when I listen I use an analyzer that keeps track of the volume RMS and frequency. Digital music can't go above 0 so everything is measured in -XdB. At its quietest I've seen classical recordings at -65dB. That usually involves a single instrument in an orchestra playing ppp. That means transient peaks will be at 0, or 65dB above that quietest part of the recording (assuming the recording makes use of the full dynamic range). In domestic environments your average noise floor is around 45-50dB. If you have some sound-proofing you might can get that to 40dB, about the volume of a library. But even if we assume a noise floor of 45dB, that means that -65dB number needs to be at or above 45dB to be heard (or not just blend in with the ambient noise of your room). It also means that transient peaks will be 65dB above 45dB, which is 110dB. If your ambient room noise is 50dB (which is likely) you add 5dB more to get 115dB.

I've used a measurement mic and gotten these results myself on my old speaker system. I believe the 115dB I reached was reached on Kitajenko's recording of Shostakovich's 7th (or 8th?) Symphony: https://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Hybrid-SACD/dp/B000B8QEVA/ Now, that recording is multi-channel which means it's getting the surround/center channels involved, which may have added somewhat to the decibel level, but I have a lot of multi-channel classical recordings like this. Another recording that gets very loud is BIS's stereo recording of Schnittke's 1st Symphony: https://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Symphony-No-1-Alfred/dp/B000027E43/ I've only heard that one with headphones, but I remember the volume RMS getting up to -5dB.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

I'm afraid I don't have a satisfactory answer for you. I'm not willing to subject myself to peak outputs that high. My future on this planet is tenuous enough already. But it's a legitimate question and I intend to have the HT's Klippel tested, including the compression sequence. I will say that so far the HT's have passed my own personal test for dynamic range, which consists of the final moments of the Rite of Spring at the highest volume I can tolerate.

 

[Nkam]

Most of my music listening is with headphones and often when I listen I use an analyzer that keeps track of the volume RMS and frequency. Digital music can't go above 0 so everything is measured in -XdB. At its quietest I've seen classical recordings at -65dB. That usually involves a single instrument in an orchestra playing ppp. That means transient peaks will be at 0, or 65dB above that quietest part of the recording (assuming the recording makes use of the full dynamic range). In domestic environments your average noise floor is around 45-50dB. If you have some sound-proofing you might can get that to 40dB, about the volume of a library. But even if we assume a noise floor of 45dB, that means that -65dB number needs to be at or above 45dB to be heard (or not just blend in with the ambient noise of your room). It also means that transient peaks will be 65dB above 45dB, which is 110dB. If your ambient room noise is 50dB (which is likely) you add 5dB more to get 115dB.

I've used a measurement mic and gotten these results myself on my old speaker system. I believe the 115dB I reached was reached on Kitajenko's recording of Shostakovich's 7th (or 8th?) Symphony: https://www.amazon.com/Shostakovich-Complete-Symphonies-Hybrid-SACD/dp/B000B8QEVA/ Now, that recording is multi-channel which means it's getting the surround/center channels involved, which may have added somewhat to the decibel level, but I have a lot of multi-channel classical recordings like this. Another recording that gets very loud is BIS's stereo recording of Schnittke's 1st Symphony: https://www.amazon.com/Schnittke-Symphony-No-1-Alfred/dp/B000027E43/ I've only heard that one with headphones, but I remember the volume RMS getting up to -5dB.

if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?
im asking because maybe now it doesn’t show and you think it’s ok to listen to levels like that, but it’s really not.
im saying this out of concern. Honestly man.
it’s kinda like us older folk are telling you, you will regret listening that loud. Even for very short periods of time.
even 90db is quite loud. Not healthy for our ears.

please don’t listen to stuff loud, it’s gonna do harm you can’t tell right now.

peace

 

[Dennis Murphy]

if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?
im asking because maybe now it doesn’t show and you think it’s ok to listen to levels like that, but it’s really not.
im saying this out of concern. Honestly man.
it’s kinda like us older folk are telling you, you will regret listening that loud. Even for very short periods of time.
even 90db is quite loud. Not healthy for our ears.

please don’t listen to stuff loud, it’s gonna do harm you can’t tell right now.

peace

I said I listened to as loud as I could tolerate. I'm Irish, so I don't know my limit on certain activities, but I do know when Stravinsky is getting too loud.

 

[solrage]

I'm afraid I don't have a satisfactory answer for you. I'm not willing to subject myself to peak outputs that high. My future on this planet is tenuous enough already. But it's a legitimate question and I intend to have the HT's Klippel tested, including the compression sequence. I will say that so far the HT's have passed my own personal test for dynamic range, which consists of the final moments of the Rite of Spring at the highest volume I can tolerate.

Thanks for the response. Any time table on the Klippel tests?

 

[solrage]

if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?
im asking because maybe now it doesn’t show and you think it’s ok to listen to levels like that, but it’s really not.
im saying this out of concern. Honestly man.
it’s kinda like us older folk are telling you, you will regret listening that loud. Even for very short periods of time.
even 90db is quite loud. Not healthy for our ears.

please don’t listen to stuff loud, it’s gonna do harm you can’t tell right now.

peace

I'm 37. Had my hearing tested a few months back. Can still hear up to 17.5kHz and hearing is overall excellent for my age. Thanks for your concern, but nobody is concerned more with my hearing than me. In fact, that 115dB measurement I took happened in the context where I was measuring my entire listening session using a calibrated microphone and a program used to test occupational noise to see if workers require hearing protection. Every time the music would go over 85dB it would run a timer and if the volume exceeded certain levels for certain periods it would warn that hearing loss could result. I did these tests for over a month and never got close to the level where it would harm my hearing. I know 115dB sounds like a lot (and it is!) but we're talking a fraction of a second--not enough to damage hearing.

 

[Mnyb]

Residual noise can in practice be better than you measure with a single number , psycho acoustically , most of the noise can be in sub-bass and bass frequencies and not in the sensitive midrange where your ears actually have the dynamic range ( look at the equal loudness contour curves ).

Possibly the A-Weigthing setting of a dB meter should compensate for the human hearing sensitivity at different frequencies if one insist on a single number .

Residual noise is usually not as bad as we think , a good thing imo